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Unread 02-05-2010, 11:15 PM   #46
BadAsh74
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Originally Posted by EvilM0nkey View Post
Jeep has no choice but to bend over backwards to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. If you don't like it.... VOTE!!! Jeep knows who it's real customers are, but the hippie liberals are forcing them to build economical cars or pay the penalty.
We gotta do more than just vote. As an entire nation, we have to full on DEMAND that the government packs it up and gets itself out of the automotive business. Its kind of funny that everyone with a job is funding the government, yet we get told what we get to buy with our hard earned cash.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I should get it off my chest:

Everyone is ready to go suck up to Obama, how great he is and all he's done. Unfortunately, my town is sickeningly prObama. But if he's so great, and knows so much, here's what I want to know:

The US automakers are in trouble, some more than others. So, Obamas plan was to offer up to $4500 for 'clunkers' in trade on new cars to help out the economy and the US automakers. But then we spent billions on bailing out GM and Chrysler. So....

How can we afford to use taxpayer money to pay up to $4500 a pop for cars that are supposedly 'clunkers'? Why didnt the government at least part them out and recoup the cash outlay by selling TONS of useable parts back to the salvage industry?

Why didnt the government at least try to determine which cars were worth refurbishing, this way they could be sold cheap to poor people who either had no cars at all, or cars that are truly unsafe?

Better yet, instead of spending taxpayer money, why not just offer a direct tax credit (not a deduction off of income) for whatever car you buy? Whatever your payments and interest are until the car is paid off, you dont pay in taxes. I mean its YOUR money to start with, right?

And if any tax credit program required you to BUY AN AMERICAN CAR to get the benefit, then there would be no bailout required? If instead of paying $10K a year to the federal government for the next 5 years, anyone with a job could instead use that money to buy a Challenger, Wrangler, F-150, Ram, Camaro, etc would there have even been a need for a bailout? I think not.

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Unread 02-05-2010, 11:33 PM   #47
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Unread 02-06-2010, 12:26 AM   #48
asknight
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Originally Posted by BadAsh74 View Post
The Charger/Challenger/300C are hardly gas guzzlers. Even with a Hemi, its still the MDS system and you can get mid 20s out of them on the highway--at least in the case of the charger/300. The challenger gets less mpg probably due to more aggressive tuning and gearing. For a 300+ hp fullsize car thats f'in AMAZING.

Toyota loves to brag about how fuel effiecient they are. Its a load of B.S. Their highest mpg non hybrid car (that yaris thing) only gets 36 mpg hwy. The way I see it, a made-from-tin fwd weenie car with less than 100 hp should be getting 45-50 mpg minimum. But look at what youre driving, it looks like an electric shaver. The charger/300 are only giving up 10 mpg hwy yet they have powerful V-8s, rear wheel drive, plenty of room, theyre a solid chunk of car that wont fall apart if you hit a sparrow and (if you like sedans) at least have SOME style. So when you look at what you get for your money and youre mpg, who's really the gas guzzler? That toyota is less than half the car of any of the Hemi LX's so the tradeoff should be at least double the efficiency, but it isnt so. A 4cyl camry is only rated at 32 mpg hwy. You can get out and run faster than one of those, and yet its barely more efficient than a hemi mopar.
I specifically referred to the SRT8 package which gets an advertised 13mpg "city." A diesel Wrangler could be a "special package" like the SRT8 is and would still get almost double the fuel economy. The very first thing that an owner of one of those does is buy a ECU programmer and disable the MDS.

To the poster above talking about the SOOT. Well, that's what the choke, er, I mean DPF is for. Mandated on ALL diesels now. They're not getting terrible NOX emissions either with ULSD. How can Ford, Chevrolet, and Dodge continue to manufacture and sell diesel trucks if diesel is so bad?

My point is with the gas guzzler cars that gets 13mpg, and the gas guzzler trucks with huge displacement gassers and diesels, why is the Jeep prohibited? A diesel Jeep will get better fuel economy than a gas guzzler car, and is guaranteed to have less emissions than a larger displacement, less fuel efficient diesel truck.

All I hear is excuses.
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Unread 02-06-2010, 12:32 AM   #49
asknight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadAsh74 View Post
We gotta do more than just vote. As an entire nation, we have to full on DEMAND that the government packs it up and gets itself out of the automotive business. Its kind of funny that everyone with a job is funding the government, yet we get told what we get to buy with our hard earned cash.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I should get it off my chest:

Everyone is ready to go suck up to Obama, how great he is and all he's done. Unfortunately, my town is sickeningly prObama. But if he's so great, and knows so much, here's what I want to know:

The US automakers are in trouble, some more than others. So, Obamas plan was to offer up to $4500 for 'clunkers' in trade on new cars to help out the economy and the US automakers. But then we spent billions on bailing out GM and Chrysler. So....

How can we afford to use taxpayer money to pay up to $4500 a pop for cars that are supposedly 'clunkers'? Why didnt the government at least part them out and recoup the cash outlay by selling TONS of useable parts back to the salvage industry?

Why didnt the government at least try to determine which cars were worth refurbishing, this way they could be sold cheap to poor people who either had no cars at all, or cars that are truly unsafe?

Better yet, instead of spending taxpayer money, why not just offer a direct tax credit (not a deduction off of income) for whatever car you buy? Whatever your payments and interest are until the car is paid off, you dont pay in taxes. I mean its YOUR money to start with, right?

And if any tax credit program required you to BUY AN AMERICAN CAR to get the benefit, then there would be no bailout required? If instead of paying $10K a year to the federal government for the next 5 years, anyone with a job could instead use that money to buy a Challenger, Wrangler, F-150, Ram, Camaro, etc would there have even been a need for a bailout? I think not.
The Cash for Clunkers farce has absolutely nothing to do with getting old inefficient vehicles off the road. The only criteria of the program was to send a kickback in the form of increased business to the UAW in appreciation for their vote.

Like everything else the anointed one touches, it backfired and help Toyota and Nissan many times over the help it provided to any American manufacturer.

The bailout didn't have anything to do with saving GM either. GM has been here long enough to know how to survive. If they can't survive, well, that's life. Welcome to the free market. Ever learn much about how a mafia operates? Especially the Chicago mafia? Pay close attention now and in the next couple of years and you'll learn a lot about the way they operate.

The scenes in the movies, while exaggerated somewhat, are true in essence. The mafia comes in, breaks some kneecaps (GM board of directors), shoots a few resisters (GM CEO and VP), and then demands a portion of the profit.

The administration has already done it to the banks. It won't be long now and their proposal for GM "paying back" their bailout will be exposed.

Anyway, sorry to get off on a tangent. The times, they are getting interesting.
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Unread 02-06-2010, 08:04 PM   #50
BadAsh74
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asknight--Ok, gotcha didnt realize you were referring to the SRT-8s. That does change the comparison altogether.
Excuses is right! I mentioned this in another thread, but I find it VERY suspicious that Jeep intro'd the Liberty CRD expecting to sell about 5K units, sold over twice that and then afterwards the EPA makes the emissions standard even MORE ridiculous than before.

As to the cash for clunkers thing, if they were trying to stroke the UAW at all then why didnt the feds require the purchase of an american made vehicle in order to get the trade in? And too, why the stipulations on mpgs? Anyone can tell you that there is MUCH more profit on a large SUV or a muscle car than in some weenie box subcompact. Selling halfway decently sized vehicles would have resulted in much greater profits and sales of more vehicles.

Dont get the wrong idea. I totally believe its a racket and a complete sham. Obama has an agenda and its all about pushing socialism.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 01:25 AM   #51
Khilla
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First of all, I am a tree hugger and jeep fan who really wants a diesel jeep. I have read this thread for a long time and really don't understand why people think environmentalist are holding back fuel efficient vehicles. It is the oil companies that do not want high MPG diesels on the market because it would hurt profits. I assure you , the Sierra club doesn't have a fraction of what exxon is paying to stop diesel motors...seriously people, hippies have never and WILL never have influence in any American government. And why are all of you *****ing about Obama and the clunkers program? Do you not realize that if not for Obama, Jeep would be owned by the Chinese and Chrysler would be no more. Do you not realize that only Japanese companies employ non-union americans and the Big three employ Mexicans and Canadians?
Please don't assume that all of us jeep fans drink the fox news rupub kool-aid.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 01:46 AM   #52
asknight
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Originally Posted by Khilla View Post
First of all, I am a tree hugger and jeep fan who really wants a diesel jeep. I have read this thread for a long time and really don't understand why people think environmentalist are holding back fuel efficient vehicles. It is the oil companies that do not want high MPG diesels on the market because it would hurt profits. I assure you , the Sierra club doesn't have a fraction of what exxon is paying to stop diesel motors...seriously people, hippies have never and WILL never have influence in any American government. And why are all of you *****ing about Obama and the clunkers program? Do you not realize that if not for Obama, Jeep would be owned by the Chinese and Chrysler would be no more. Do you not realize that only Japanese companies employ non-union americans and the Big three employ Mexicans and Canadians?
Please don't assume that all of us jeep fans drink the fox news rupub kool-aid.
Obama now owns GM. GM sold Hummer to China after Obama seized control. China won. America lost.

The Chinese never wanted Jeep. They wanted Buick and Hummer. India and Italy wanted Jeep. China won. Italy won. America lost.

So, what good has Obama done for the American people? Help me out because I'm drawing a big empty blank.

The Cash for Clunkers program did exactly nothing that Obama said it would. It forced the price of good used vehicles to skyrocket, hurting the poorer people that Obama said he wanted to help. Nissan and Toyota sold more cars under Cash for Clunkers than Ford, Chrysler, and GM combined. Now we owe China many more billions or trillions of dollars for that amateurish screw up. Japan won. China won. America lost.

About the Japanese hiring non-union Americans... That's what's given them the edge in perceived quality and profit for the last two decades. The Japanese are not stupid, and we could stand to learn a lesson from them in capitalism because they're beating us at our own game. Smart American companies are hiring NON-UNION now as well. Existing union contracts are being renegotiated at record rates, and if the union doesn't budge, the companies are closing doors.

I say good for them. They shouldn't be willingly encumbered by anti-capitalist socialist democrat and communist policies.

Your realization that the big three are hiring more Mexicans and Canadians is simply the real world proof that communist democrat policies fail. The Big Three was forced to eject out of the US due to the cost of labor (communist union contracts.) Get rid of those union scumbags and the manufacturing will come back. No one is entitled to $40+ starting hourly wages for performing uneducated labor.

Off topic: Hang around Democratic Underground much?
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Unread 02-16-2010, 02:06 AM   #53
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Great points, you obviously do not suck palin's tites.
yes, Cash for clunk could have been done better but that would mean more gov/big gov...so what to do???
Jeep was 2 inches from being no-more...so what ever country bought them, that is good.
BTW, I don't give a **** about UAW workers. or soot fuel efficient diesels make everyone happy!
The truth is, unfortunately , that Japanese car companies employ more Americans than the big three. I get so sick of this buy American BS, when everything is made in Canada and Mexico.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 09:14 AM   #54
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I don't know if this is accurate or not but I heard something about the diesel fuel market. Refineries in the United States sell a lot of the diesel they produce to Europe where diesel use is higher and where the price is higher. If this is true could this be a factor in why we aren't seeing more diesels here?
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Unread 02-16-2010, 12:09 PM   #55
BadAsh74
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asknight-- Id say youre dead right on just about every last point.

khilla-- if you look up a few posts, I outlined EXACTLY how the cash for clunkers thing should have been done.

But youre wrong if you think Jeep would be no more without Obama's takeover. Chrysler might have gone away. Dodge, unlikely but possible. But Jeep is a guaranteed money maker. The compass and patriot are proof that the name and image alone will sell cars, no matter how far they stray from what Jeep is meant to be.

I get irritated at the american companies outsourcing too. But you know what, I do NOT blame them. I blame the government taxing the crap out of everything. If you dont like capitalism, thats fine. Move to a communist or socialist country and see how that works out. But the USA was founded as a capitalist nation and thats the model we need to go straight back to. The way capitalism works is, if something tears into your profits (excessive taxes) then you do something about it. We'll hand Toyota or Hyundai anything they want on a silver platter delivered by a pretty girl carrying a six pack with it. But if youre an american company trying to do a little business and create a few jobs then you'd better strap on your knee pads if you know what I mean.

Oh and dont even get me started on that whole Sierra Club thing. They and every other environmentalist group are pretty much the biggest hindrance to progress and prosperity second only to the IRS and the federal government. Dont think so? Do some research on that whole spotted owl fiasco. Its been proven that one of their top guys had some prime area to be logged and he knew that something like this which would declare other areas as a refuge would kill the mom and pop logging outfits as well as even some of the mid and large size guys. Once it had blown over but the damage done, the value of that land doubled or more. Its all about the money.

Want more? Just recently here in Oregon im not sure if it was the Sierras or not, but some environmental group started suing to stop the erection of a huge geothermal plant in eastern Oregon. Clean, cheap power--stopped by the greenies. And on top of that, they wanted to put wave powered dynamos off the coast to generate power--also clean and cheap. Stopped by the greenies.

Hey, Im all for conservation of nature, and improving existing engine technology to squeeze more power out of a gallon of fuel is a good thing all around. But Im for common sense. Environmental fanatics (not saying YOURE one of them) and government are the furthest thing from that. As to Obama, give it 5 years. I think youre gonna see just how big of a mistake it was electing that jack off.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 02:06 PM   #56
T-birdJunkie
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Originally Posted by Khilla View Post
Great points, you obviously do not suck palin's tites.
ThunderbirdJunkie totally would. She has a nice pooper too

Why'd this turn into a bull**** political thread? This crap is stupid. If ThunderbirdJunkie wanted to discuss political BS he'd to to a place that wasn't a diesel JK thread to do so.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 02:20 PM   #57
asknight
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ThunderbirdJunkie totally would. She has a nice pooper too

Why'd this turn into a bull**** political thread? This crap is stupid. If ThunderbirdJunkie wanted to discuss political BS he'd to to a place that wasn't a diesel JK thread to do so.

Lol. The lack of a diesel JK and political BS are two twins intertwined all the way to the top of the Fed Govt.

The point is that we could all buy a diesel powered Wrangler if it weren't for the political BS.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 02:22 PM   #58
asknight
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Originally Posted by XJ2Timer View Post
I don't know if this is accurate or not but I heard something about the diesel fuel market. Refineries in the United States sell a lot of the diesel they produce to Europe where diesel use is higher and where the price is higher. If this is true could this be a factor in why we aren't seeing more diesels here?
I'm not sure on that. I can't help but to assume that more diesel is sold in the US for just our tractor/trailer rigs than in Europe with their tractor/trailer and their personal vehicle diesel usage combined. We are much larger, and more rural.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 02:38 PM   #59
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Its all tied to political B.S. Pretty much anything that would be good for the consumer, is based on common sense and would make people happy to be able to purchase and enjoy is going to be held up by the government.
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Unread 02-16-2010, 02:50 PM   #60
T-birdJunkie
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Originally Posted by asknight View Post
Lol. The lack of a diesel JK and political BS are two twins intertwined all the way to the top of the Fed Govt.

The point is that we could all buy a diesel powered Wrangler if it weren't for the political BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadAsh74 View Post
Its all tied to political B.S. Pretty much anything that would be good for the consumer, is based on common sense and would make people happy to be able to purchase and enjoy is going to be held up by the government.
LOL...yeah, it'd be great for the consumer. Too bad the consumer is too stupid to realize it. The XJ and KJ were both available as diesels. Not many of those were built for sale in the US. The Isuzu Trooper had a diesel variant...not many were sold. All of those, on paper, are better than their gas variants.
Chrysler probably doesn't think it's worth the trouble to sell them here. And they're probably right.
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