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ROCKRIDGE4WD Introduces a NEW Jeep Wrangler JK *led* tail ROCK BOTTOM prices on LIFT KITS at Rockridge4wd!! WANT TO NEW JK WRANGLER GRAB BARS NOW at ROCKRIDGE4WD

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Unread 05-08-2012, 09:55 AM   #61
shippey-ki-yay
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Judging from the concept vehicles they unveiled at Moab (FC etc.), it seems Jeep is sticking to frame/straight axle design. On the other hand I'm sure there's some suit in a board room arguing for torsion bar/ifs saying "Soccer moms don't want to spill their latte's everytime they hit a speed bump".

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Unread 05-08-2012, 11:49 AM   #62
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Yeah, all those expediters I see locally hauling literal tons of rock samples out of mines, down the worst highway in North America, to sample prep labs in the local industrial sites using Chev HDs are having a terrible time of it.

Oh, wait, no, they've been using them almost exclusively, and only started recently switching to Rams because the Rams are more comfortable for the long highway trips.

Also, I'll just leave this here:



Your '80s Ford blew up their front suspension because they were '80s Fords. Everything domestic from that era sucked. That was 30 years ago. Quality controls and engineering have changed quite dramatically. I see IFS trucks wheeling and hauling with the best of the solid-axle ones up here.

EDIT: But that's not the point. The Wrangler is NOT going IFS/IRS. Not now, not any time soon, not likely ever.
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Unread 05-08-2012, 01:03 PM   #63
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You know I hope you are right in the end. I am just glad we can talk about this in a non confrontational way. I do give jeep alot of credit for getting it right, hitting a certain demographic and selling product. It is nice when people do the correct research and it pays off them. I just hope it doesn't go to their heads.

On a personal note: the fords and Chevy in question were an 1980,1985,1990,1994 and 1995. Of the close to two dozen 1970's f 150 -350's our family owned zero ever blew the front diff or shafts. One did lunch the 9" rear (460 c6 with 3.55)
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Unread 05-08-2012, 01:31 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marauder_Pilot View Post
Yeah, all those expediters I see locally hauling literal tons of rock samples out of mines, down the worst highway in North America, to sample prep labs in the local industrial sites using Chev HDs are having a terrible time of it.

Oh, wait, no, they've been using them almost exclusively,
Kind of like how GE bought all those Chevy Volts because they were so well made and they were the best electric vehicle on the market. It had NOTHING to do with padding sales numbers for the political gain of an administration that gave them preferential treatment on taxes, and access to new opporunities in China. Not to mention the fact that the entire region, and therefore all public sector and private sector enterprises in that region are subsidized by the Federal Government. Nah, that has NOOOOOTTTHHHHIIIIINNNNGGG to do with it.
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Unread 05-08-2012, 02:19 PM   #65
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Kind of like how GE bought all those Chevy Volts because they were so well made and they were the best electric vehicle on the market. It had NOTHING to do with padding sales numbers for the political gain of an administration that gave them preferential treatment on taxes, and access to new opporunities in China. Not to mention the fact that the entire region, and therefore all public sector and private sector enterprises in that region are subsidized by the Federal Government. Nah, that has NOOOOOTTTHHHHIIIIINNNNGGG to do with it.
...um, these expediters are all very private sector companies, generally run by 6-12 people. They have nothing do with the government at all, and make their livings with their trucks.

They almost all bought Chevy 2500s and 3500s because they ran cheap, had no problems handling mining roads and the Alaska Highway while hauling literal tons of very, very valuable mining samples (Moved for privately-owned mines to privately-owned sample prep companies). They were probably the hardest-working trucks on the entire continent (Routinely running up 300,000 KM in a year or two).

I've worked for prep labs, and talked a lot with the expediters. The only reason they've started switching to the Rams lately is because the new high-output Cummins tow as well as the Duramaxes did, and the interiors are a bit nicer to spend 16 hours a day in.

Anecdote all you want, I'm going to go with the opinions of professional drivers who drive back from Whitehorse to Watson Lake or Faro and back every single day hauling a million dollars worth of very specific rocks. (Yes, rocks)

If you're going to try and draw comparisons, try and find one relevant to the topic. This isn't the government subsidizing some technology, these are professional drivers making a very compelling argument to how well IFS trucks can stand up.

Anyways.

I know there are plenty of times when IFS has gone horribly wrong on commercial vehicles, and Chevrolet gets a bit of a pass since they've been running it since the '60s. But the whole American car industry was making barely-passable junk back then. (Although I know of plenty of beat-to-hell F-Series trucks still rolling up here).

Perfect case-in-point: Old CJs and Wranglers have Dana 30/35 combos-acceptable for virtually nothing but the stock wheels. New Wranglers? HP 30/44 combo-tough enough to upgrade.
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Unread 05-08-2012, 02:59 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Marauder_Pilot View Post
...um, these expediters are all very private sector companies, generally run by 6-12 people. They have nothing do with the government at all, and make their livings with their trucks.

They almost all bought Chevy 2500s and 3500s because they ran cheap, had no problems handling mining roads and the Alaska Highway while hauling literal tons of very, very valuable mining samples (Moved for privately-owned mines to privately-owned sample prep companies). They were probably the hardest-working trucks on the entire continent (Routinely running up 300,000 KM in a year or two).

I've worked for prep labs, and talked a lot with the expediters. The only reason they've started switching to the Rams lately is because the new high-output Cummins tow as well as the Duramaxes did, and the interiors are a bit nicer to spend 16 hours a day in.

Anecdote all you want, I'm going to go with the opinions of professional drivers who drive back from Whitehorse to Watson Lake or Faro and back every single day hauling a million dollars worth of very specific rocks. (Yes, rocks)

If you're going to try and draw comparisons, try and find one relevant to the topic. This isn't the government subsidizing some technology, these are professional drivers making a very compelling argument to how well IFS trucks can stand up.

Anyways.

I know there are plenty of times when IFS has gone horribly wrong on commercial vehicles, and Chevrolet gets a bit of a pass since they've been running it since the '60s. But the whole American car industry was making barely-passable junk back then. (Although I know of plenty of beat-to-hell F-Series trucks still rolling up here).

Perfect case-in-point: Old CJs and Wranglers have Dana 30/35 combos-acceptable for virtually nothing but the stock wheels. New Wranglers? HP 30/44 combo-tough enough to upgrade.

Expediters who work on contract, right? Contracts with big business mines. In Alaska. A state who's very existence is subsidized by the Federal Government. In an industry that is completely strangled by government regulation to the point where it might as well be nationalized. Or maybe you're right. Maybe they get one of your "incentives" to buy bailed out crap. Like a tax "credit", and subsidized warranty. Because you know that's the only reason GM can afford to give that warranty, right?

As far as the CJ to JK comparison. While the new suspensions might be able to handle the wheel upgrade, what is the capability of the vehicle to begin with? Are you saying the JK, especially the 07-11 model is as capable as say a 70's CJ7?
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Unread 05-08-2012, 03:13 PM   #67
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1: Not in Alaska, I'm in the Yukon.

2: If you think that Alaska, or any northern territory is subsidized by the government, you haven't paid attention lately. It's 80% Chinese investment in some very substantial mining projects. It's like the Klondike Gold Rush up here again, but with fewer people freezing in the mountains.

3: Mining is hilariously unrestricted by the government. It's so unrestricted that Yukoners are actually protesting the government to make it more restrictive because of the environmental damage that's been happening due to the breakneck pace of developmet. The Yukon, Alaska and NWT have gone from virtually no activity to dozens of operating mines in about 3 years.

4: The whole point is moot anyways, because these expediters are not contracted by the mines. The jobs are done on a tender basis, and they don't work exclusively for mines, that's just where the money is right now. They haul anything, whether it be equipment, parts, small materials and so forth. They're companies who specialize in getting relatively small amounts of valuable goods and equipment from point A to hilariously remote point B as fast as possible.

5: No incentives, not beyond what the local dealership offers. And for our local dealerships, catering heavily to mining, forestry and construction, 3 or 4 HD trucks every other year is piecemeal, so they're not exactly in a bidding war.

6: I'm saying a JK is more capable than any CJ in every way possible save width. Better power/weight ratio (Both torque and horsepower), better approach/departure angles, better breakover numbers, safer, more stable, more flex, more factory clearance, easier and cheaper to modify...the only thing a CJ has is width.
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Unread 05-08-2012, 11:17 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Marauder_Pilot View Post
Snip everything I know nothing about

6: I'm saying a JK is more capable than any CJ in every way possible save width. Better power/weight ratio (Both torque and horsepower), better approach/departure angles, better breakover numbers, safer, more stable, more flex, more factory clearance, easier and cheaper to modify...the only thing a CJ has is width.
I will agree that a JK is more capable in everyway over a CJ. What I don't understand is the easier/cheaper to modify. To put a lift on a CJ all you need to do is take out 8-16 bolts and replace the springs/shocks. To put a lift on a JK you need to take off all of the controll arms, get a spring compressor, and then mess with the computerized controll systems so it does not try to tell you your tires are too big (I read about something in the JK forum about hte ABS, or traction controll, or the brake diff lock thing, or the turning speed sensor) It also seems like there is much less to go wrong on a CJ and when it does you can fix it for the most part with simple hand tools.

I may have a misconception about working on modern cars, but it seems like even real mechanics have a harder time with the 2012 cars then with the 1970's cars. If I am wrong please enlighten me, I am not saying you are wrong just don't understand how a JK could possibly be easier to work on. After market parts cost about the same for any vehicle, so I understand it is cheaper because it takes less mods to run a more aggresive set up.
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Unread 05-08-2012, 11:48 PM   #69
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Sorry, I meant more serious mods. Although you don't need to touch the control arms-a spring compressor to change the springs if you can't drop the axle, yes, but otherwise it's just a coil swap like a TJ.

However, let's go over what's needed for 33" tires on a CJ vs JK:

CJ (Cheapest version):
-1" BL
-2.5" SL
-TC drop/MML

Looking at $800 +tires.

JK:
-1" BL

$125 +tires.

It gets even worse if you want 35"s.

CJ:
-Dana 44 rear, HP Dana 30 front
-4.5" total lift
-SYE kit
-CV driveshaft
-Regear (Roll that in with the new axles)
Thousands of dollars, even if you manage to do it with as many junkyard parts as possible.

JK:
-2.5" SL
$250

Bust your CJ fenders? $800 and you have to disassemble half your engine bay. JK fenders? $300 for all four corners and 30 minutes with an electronic screwdriver.

After that, it's all the same-transmissions, TCs, axles, control arms and so forth are all largely the same. Once in a while, you might need an EVIC programmer, but that's $300 from AEV or ProComp-and is a LOT easier than dealing with regearing your speedo. If you can use a cellphone, you can use an EVIC. All the problems you saw were people who put on larger tires without recalibrating the EVIC-something that non-Jeepers have had to deal with for years. Worst case scenario, you pay half an hour of labour at your local mechanic to plug in a few numbers. Yes, it's a computer, but it's just another tool you need to mod your Jeep properly, and it saves a lot of tools you no longer need.

Yes, a CJ is simpler to fix in general. But a JK is much less likely to need fixing in the first place. I mean, take carbs-anybody can fiddle with one, and if it gives out, you can get going in with some bravery and a can of hairspray. Fuel injection? Just doesn't break in the first place. And all EVICs have whats called 'limp mode'-if something goes seriously wrong, it doesn't kill the vehicle, it just limits the speed. And it's not like its a fragile circuit board laying out somewhere-they're hardened, tested and protected pieces of equipment, and a lot better protected against water than most mechanical parts in your vehicle.

People are scared of modern vehicles because they haven't been exposed to them, and that's understandable. But the statistics don't lie-they're just better at what they do. As someone who works in computers, believe me-they're not scary, and they're not fragile.
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Unread 05-08-2012, 11:50 PM   #70
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Oh, wait, no, they've been using them almost exclusively, and only started recently switching to Rams because the Rams are more comfortable for the long highway trips.
You mean a solid axle truck instead of one with IFS
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Unread 05-08-2012, 11:52 PM   #71
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You mean a solid axle truck instead of one with IFS
Yeah, but they switched for the seats and the nav, not for the axles. The IFS holds up just fine, trust me.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 01:29 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Marauder_Pilot View Post
Sorry, I meant more serious mods. Although you don't need to touch the control arms-a spring compressor to change the springs if you can't drop the axle, yes, but otherwise it's just a coil swap like a TJ.

After that, it's all the same-transmissions, TCs, axles, control arms and so forth are all largely the same. Once in a while, you might need an EVIC programmer, but that's $300 from AEV or ProComp-and is a LOT easier than dealing with regearing your speedo. If you can use a cellphone, you can use an EVIC. All the problems you saw were people who put on larger tires without recalibrating the EVIC-something that non-Jeepers have had to deal with for years. Worst case scenario, you pay half an hour of labour at your local mechanic to plug in a few numbers. Yes, it's a computer, but it's just another tool you need to mod your Jeep properly, and it saves a lot of tools you no longer need.

Yes, a CJ is simpler to fix in general. But a JK is much less likely to need fixing in the first place. I mean, take carbs-anybody can fiddle with one, and if it gives out, you can get going in with some bravery and a can of hairspray. Fuel injection? Just doesn't break in the first place. And all EVICs have whats called 'limp mode'-if something goes seriously wrong, it doesn't kill the vehicle, it just limits the speed. And it's not like its a fragile circuit board laying out somewhere-they're hardened, tested and protected pieces of equipment, and a lot better protected against water than most mechanical parts in your vehicle.

People are scared of modern vehicles because they haven't been exposed to them, and that's understandable. But the statistics don't lie-they're just better at what they do. As someone who works in computers, believe me-they're not scary, and they're not fragile.
So you mean to run the same size tire with the same reliability it is easier to mod, which makes a lot of since becasue the JK has what 4 more inches of tire stock, I though you were saying to throw a 2 inch lift on both Jeeps.

I was not saying carbs are better then FI. I have read way to many 4.2 won't run/start/turn off threads to want a carb, my FI works great.

There is also no need to regear the speedo on older Jeeps. I drive my YJ all the time and never regeared the speedo (I just do math when I drive, add 10%) No it is not hard to plug a Jeep in but it is an extra step.

I know the computers are not a problem but when they do go bad you can't fix them right you just have to replace them $$$? There is one computer in my YJ, and only a hand full of sensors to go bad some of which are not really even needed. It just seems like in 25 years from now the computers/electronics in the JK's are going to be a nice home for some gremlins. At this point we are compairing a New Jeep to a Jeep that is 30 years old and has probably had every part taken off at least once.

IMHO I would rather have simple to fix then does not need to be fixed (yet), I guess it just depends on how you look at it, but I will give you that it is easier and cheaper to put 35's on a JK then on a CJ. But I would feel much more comfortable putting a lift on leaf springs then on coils (that could be because I have never touched coil springs before)
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Unread 05-09-2012, 06:45 AM   #73
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So you mean to run the same size tire with the same reliability it is easier to mod, which makes a lot of since becasue the JK has what 4 more inches of tire stock, I though you were saying to throw a 2 inch lift on both Jeeps.
it depends on the lift you're putting on.

a 2" budget boost lift for a JK, you're just popping the coils out (a LOT easier then removing leafsprings) and sticking spacers on top of them, then either swapping shocks or installing extension brackets on the shocks, then do your alignment and you're done.

A 2" lift for a JK does not require new controls arms, and mine didn't even require new trac bars. it was just tossing the spacers in and installing 4 brackets and that was it.

If I threw on flat flares, I could easily fit 35s. And that was a LOT easier then the spring lifts I did on my YJ by far.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 08:31 AM   #74
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what's it going to take for a man to get a Lower 40 in production?!

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Unread 05-09-2012, 09:01 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Marauder_Pilot View Post
6: I'm saying a JK is more capable than any CJ in every way possible save width. Better power/weight ratio (Both torque and horsepower), better approach/departure angles, better breakover numbers, safer, more stable, more flex, more factory clearance, easier and cheaper to modify...the only thing a CJ has is width.
I'll be looking forward to putting that to the test come this winter. My 83' CJ7 was able to plow through almost 2ft of snow down 14 miles of closed highway at around 50 mph without once slipping, sliding, or struggling no matter if it was going up or down steep hills, or around bends. I love my JK, but I'm really doubtful it's going to perform anywhere near, aswell. Though, I'm going to have fun finding out.
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