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Unread 06-18-2011, 08:23 PM   #16
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It wont sell because its completely missing the target market. The Jeep crowd clearly likes to build, modify, and wrench on our own rigs. Hybrids and greenie stuff doesnt appeal to this demographic. Hell, itd be like trying to market tampons to men...its just not going to happen because we have no use for it.
Actually, correct me if I am wrong but the majority of the Jeep crowd will never see dirt. The minority of the Jeep crowd now are those who enjoy seeing dirt and modifying. There is a reason why the newer Jeeps are becoming people movers.

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Unread 06-22-2011, 11:01 AM   #17
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Actually, correct me if I am wrong but the majority of the Jeep crowd will never see dirt. The minority of the Jeep crowd now are those who enjoy seeing dirt and modifying. There is a reason why the newer Jeeps are becoming people movers.
The patriot/compass, yes. Even the grand cherokee. But take a GOOD look. Whens the last time you've seen a bone stock wrangler? Even if it rarely sees dirt, its still a modded rig which means that whoever owns it is a gearhead on some level. Accessories for Jeeps and 4x4s is still HUGE business which means that there is still a large community of enthusiasts and they dont give 2 ****s about greenie crap. Toyota and Honda seem to be able to move enough hybrids to make it worthwhile, but its a small-ish market. Let them have it so that American car companies can focus on building REAL cars, trucks, and 4x4s.
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Unread 06-22-2011, 02:43 PM   #18
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The patriot/compass, yes. Even the grand cherokee. But take a GOOD look. Whens the last time you've seen a bone stock wrangler? Even if it rarely sees dirt, its still a modded rig which means that whoever owns it is a gearhead on some level. Accessories for Jeeps and 4x4s is still HUGE business which means that there is still a large community of enthusiasts and they dont give 2 ****s about greenie crap. Toyota and Honda seem to be able to move enough hybrids to make it worthwhile, but its a small-ish market. Let them have it so that American car companies can focus on building REAL cars, trucks, and 4x4s.
Last time I saw a bone-stock Wrangler? I see them everyday, way more than I see modded ones. Remember, not every area/state is stocked with a plethora of trails.

With that said, of course some areas may have more "off roaders" than "on roaders", but do you honestly believe the majority of the USA sees dirt? There is a reason why Jeeps are becoming less and less off-road ready from the factory these days.

There is a large community for off-roading, which is why there are these business that caters to them. But we are the minority. Also, a lot of people do want 4x4 vehicle so they can have a reliable vehicle during the harsh winters some get.

We may disagree, but from what I can see, the MAJORITY of the people in the USA want a people mover. Something that has perks such as backup cameras, mp3 players, great MPG, and so on.
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Unread 06-22-2011, 04:24 PM   #19
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You can wrench on a hybrid, just a matter of learning. Having a aftermarket like Jeep currently has makes it easier too. This is similar to the carbureted vs fuel injection debate over what is easier to work on. I think hybrids haven't caught on yet in the wrench it crowd, because they haven't targeted this area much. Your average hybrid vehicle is meant for a different buyer. In the past we used a primitive diesel electric hybrid on u-boats in WWII, which shows one of its other applications besides being green. However I don't think we are at a point in that technology where you could make a hybrid electric Jeep effective offroad and efficient enough to benefit from the hybrid system. Let alone the cost.

4 electric motors driving one wheel each? I could dig it.
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Unread 06-29-2011, 04:26 PM   #20
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4wd vehicles operate in pretty harsh conditions if used for offroading. Complexity is something you DONT want. All that wiring, batteries, and electronics wont last very long in a 4wd. You want to keep it simple so you can actually work on it. Batteries only last for so long...I mean how long does it take before your cel phone wont hold a charge? How long do the batteries on a cordless drill last? These are items that cost $100-$300 so theyre more or less disposable. Youre not going to drop $30-$50K for a new rig, drive it for 3-5 years then have to put another $5-$8K into it once the batteries die. Trade-in value will go straight to **** with this kind of repair bill hanging over it. And if its over-laden with computerized hardware, there wont be any modifying either. You cant really hot-rod a hybrid and who would want to anyway? If you want to sell a few golf carts and priuses to the greenies, go for it. They wont do anything more than put an organic air freshener in it and drive it to the sierra club meetings. But for a rig designed to actually DO something, that crap will keep people away in droves.
A hybrid drivetrain isn't that complex.

You know what is complex? The normal gasoline engine, computer, and all the little parts that give you 300hp out of a 3.5L V6 instead of 150hp from a 7.0L V8 like you got in 1975.
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Unread 06-29-2011, 04:27 PM   #21
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It wont sell because its completely missing the target market. The Jeep crowd clearly likes to build, modify, and wrench on our own rigs. Hybrids and greenie stuff doesnt appeal to this demographic. Hell, itd be like trying to market tampons to men...its just not going to happen because we have no use for it.

Are you that afraid of electricity?


OH GNOES YOUR CAR HAS AN ALTERNATOR AND A STARTER MOTOR OH GNOES IT TOO COMPLICIMACATED


Stop spreading this bull****. The reason people offroad is because they love the outdoors. Why would they not want to save resources and go further on a tank of gas? It sounds like you "traditionalists" do need tampons, to stuff in your pieholes so you stop complaining about time marching forward.
I'm only a traditionalist when new tech makes things worse. So I want a Jeep to have solid axles and a frame. But I also want it to get good gas mileage and perform better offroad, which are benefits of hybridization.
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Unread 06-30-2011, 11:53 PM   #22
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Are you that afraid of electricity?


OH GNOES YOUR CAR HAS AN ALTERNATOR AND A STARTER MOTOR OH GNOES IT TOO COMPLICIMACATED


Stop spreading this bull****. The reason people offroad is because they love the outdoors. Why would they not want to save resources and go further on a tank of gas? It sounds like you "traditionalists" do need tampons, to stuff in your pieholes so you stop complaining about time marching forward.
I'm only a traditionalist when new tech makes things worse. So I want a Jeep to have solid axles and a frame. But I also want it to get good gas mileage and perform better offroad, which are benefits of hybridization.
As a matter of fact, yeah. Im a bit concerned that a few hundred volts might be completely lethal when encased in a shell of metal, therefore having a completed circuit possiblly fractions of an inch away in the event of any kind of wreck. Someone mentioned hybrids not being more complicated, which is complete B.S. because it builds on all that 'complicated engine tech' with even more electronics. Mechanical parts--when well designed--can last practically forever and are easily serviceable whereas electronic crap can take a ***** on you whenever it feels like it. Good luck trying to chase those gremlins down too. God help you if youre away from civilization and get your wallet out, Jack.

Hybrids are for fans of Al Gore. REAL 4x4s and cars are for enthusiasts. I will happily sacrifice a few mpgs for a cheaper buy in price, more brute power, a simpler overall vehicle, the nasty snarl of a Hemi thru dual flowmasters and no greenie feminized image. If you want hybrid crap, buy a prius, hug a few trees and get an Obama sticker.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 06:02 PM   #23
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An electric motor can put down way more torque and power, with substantially less complexity and weight than a gas motor.

Electric motors put out more torque than comparable gas ones, and put out 100% torque all the time. No torque curve, you get it all from the second you rev it up.

Electric motors, no matter how they're designed, will last forever-there's exactly one moving part and, unless it's damaged, it'll work forever with zero maintenance.

Electronic modules are simple-if it breaks, you replace it. Car repair will be no more complicated than fixing a laptop.

Yeah, there's plenty of problems with electric cars, but they're all with the batteries. Electric motors are better than gas ones in every way save the sound.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 06:35 PM   #24
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A few people have stated that most Jeep people would not be interested in electric or hybrid vechiles, mainly because they like to mod them.

I live near Pittsburgh, most of the regular Jeeps I see have some mods, mostly lift kits and lighting. This may put an additional drain on the batteries, requiring more frequent charging, just as they require more frequent fill-ups at the gas station.

Most of the new Jeeps that I see are the 4-door mini-Hummers, and they have zero mods. It seems to me that the old timers like us are a fading breed, and the new people, or those who use Jeeps for their DD, would be interested in electrics or hybrids. Even some old timers might like the hybrids, if the power was there.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 07:22 PM   #25
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Why can't you mod a hybrid/electric Jeep?

Here's what the Wrangler EV would have looked like:



IE, just like a regular Wrangler. 4 electric motors in the wheel hubs and batteries and a diesel engine under the hood.

Here's a list of all the mods you can still do that would be completely unchanged:

-Bumpers
-Armour
-Lights
-Different doors
-Racks
-Cages
-Seats
-Fender flares
-Tires
-Wheels

Here's a list that would be fundamentally the same, but slightly different:
-Gearing
-Lift kits
-Engine mods (Chipping, intakes, ect)

Here's a list of all the mods you couldn't do:
(List intentionally left blank)

There's no reason that a Wrangler EV can't be modded. It'd probably be easier, really-jobs like regearing would be a thing of the past. Why regear when you can just change the tire size from a configuration menu in the onboard computer and the engines adjust appropriately. No more transfer cases and their limited ranges of ratios, with each engine individually controlled, you could choose what wheels get power, how much per wheel, even the directions of each wheel if you wanted, you could make the thing turn on its axis like a tank!

Electric motors are no more dangerous than gas. Less, in fact-the absolute worst case scenario is if you, say, cut a power line under water, a fuse blows somewhere in the engine and cuts it out. Yeah, it's down for a second, but it'd be the same as cutting a fuel or brake line, which happens plenty-you winch out, swap in spares and continue on your way.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 07:46 PM   #26
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Electric motors DO last a long time, youre absolutely right. The problemo is the batteries, which wont hold a charge after just a short time. Once those are dead, youre spending HUGE money to replace them. Unless you want to ditch the batteries and do like those huge construction rigs and have a diesel engine running a generator to run the electric motors. But still, you have problems with water and dust in those things and you STILL are relying on a gasoline engine. The truth is, look at the econo boxes: Prius and other hybrids are much more expensive and complicated than a Jetta diesel. The hybrids offer less economy, higher buy-in price, double the maintenance, a ticking time bomb of a batter replacement expense as well as electrical gremlins just waiting to happen and we have no clue how long these setups will even last. On the other hand, the VW kicks its *** at fuel economy AND performance, is tuneable for even more performance, has at least some appeal for the enthusiast, is comparably priced yet equipped like a luxury car as opposed to a rental and will last forever. Those old gutless VW diesels from the eary 80s get 40 and 50 mpg and are clocking over 300K or more. Your hybrids wont do that, not in a million years.

Another thing to consider is this: From fuel injection, to independent suspensions, to DSG transmissions, low profile tires...pretty much ANY worthwhile advancement in automotive technology has its roots in racing. It has been proven on the track and the advantages to the DD are clear in most every case. Hybrid technology isnt used in offroad racing, NASCAR, SCCA, open wheel, or any of that. A few backyard mechanics have made full electric dragsters that definitely can scorch a quarter mile, but also tap out their batteries in a pass or 2 which isnt practical. Thats a one off exhibition type of project. Things like hybrid technology are no different than any of the other bells and whistles offered in modern luxury cars just to rope people in but it works best on the 'new is better' mentality. Like automatic transmissions, stability control and all the other little gadgets that only numb the driving experience, dumbing it down to a bunch of fatass sedentary do-nothings who unfortunately make up the bulk of the automotive buying demographic. Its sad.

And all the facts and figures aside, which prove that hybrids are nothing but a bunch of trumped up hype marketed to non-enthusiasts, they wont catch on with any other crowd besides environmentalists because of the tree hugger stigma. That crowd doesnt know any better--if some hollywood kooks and the sierra club will endorse it, then theyre on board. They wont care if the batteries take a **** in 2 years because theyll probably lease it and will 'feel better' because they think they made a difference. An offroader or hotrodder doesnt care about any of that and knows that simpler is better in 99% of situations.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 07:49 PM   #27
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That I think everybody can agree on. Batteries just aren't up to snuff yet-lithium-ion batteries will last long enough, weigh less and are safer and more environmentally friendly, but they're hilariously expensive.
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Unread 07-05-2011, 11:17 PM   #28
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The battery issue is one of the MAIN issues here. There was a time where certain hybrid technologies had my attention. The concept for the most recent Mitsu Eclipse was one of them, since its awd system was basically a hybrid drive setup. Electric motors would kick in and drive the rear wheels for more grip at high speeds or low traction situations. Or it could be enabled in low speed, bumper-to-bumper type driving. It was put out there as an alternative awd system and had much lower rotational mass than a normal awd setup which uses a take-off on the transaxle (fwd layouts) or a single speed transfercase laid out like a regular 4x4 on rwd layouts. The whole mpg and carbon footprint garbage had nothing to do with why they went this route, but better efficiency was a side effect. Until I made the connection about the batteries which are gonna crap out in a few years, I had some interest. Then the greenies started getting behind them, and they started being marketed to a bunch of aging hippie liberal eggheads...best way to put me on the other side of that line in the sand, Jack.

Toyota isnt the only offender here, but them trying to blow it out its *** about who great their hybrids are is a joke. They only get about 40 mpg which isnt that great, considering that if you find an early 90s honda civic/crx, corolla, or better yet a Geo Metro you could get 40-50 mpgs out of one of those. The pricetag on a prius ranges from the mid 20s to the low 30s. But what do you have? An electric shaver with a steering wheel. You can get a LOT of really great cars for that kind of money that dont sacrifice much in mpgs and are fun to drive and look great: A v-6 Mustang looks great, has 300 hp and gets 30 mpg. A minicooper gets 38 mpg, and a GTI gets 29 mpg. Thats just a few examples. But even if youre not a 'car person' and only care about saving money, look at it like this: Drop $2K on a '91 Corrolla, spend another $2K going thru it making sure its tip top means youre only into it $4K and can do everything that prius can for a HELL of a lot less money.

The reason hybrids and electrics are being pushed on us has nothing to do with the enviro-hogwash, nor does it have anything to do with oil or its supply. Global warming and climate change have been proven to be a hoax. The scientists' emails who were pushing this has already been exposed. The only problem with petrol not being affordable can be boiled down to politics. The greenies shut down any drilling or building of new refineries with a slew of lawsuits, but who's been funding them? The oil companies! Because theyre happy to let the refineries they have run at 97% capacity while we run the current drilling platforms at much the same since if there's a bottleneck in supply, it drives up the cost and profits. I dont blame the oil companies though. This is capitalism and corporations' main purpose is to make a profit. You cant blame a leapord for having its spots. Who I do blame is none other than G.W. Bush. Even though I voted for him (twice) and feel that he had the biggest platter of ***** sandwiches to munch down of any prez in most of our lifetimes, the answer became obvious after both 9/11 and Katrina--Declare it a matter of national security that every state MUST maintain so many refineries per capita and that ALL known sources of sweet crude are to be drilled. Exploration of new sources is mandatory. Put an executive freeze on all lawsuits related to drilling/refineries and Id go a step further by declaring the Sierra Club, Greenpeace and especially ELF as terrorist organizations.

But I digress. The reason this garbage is being peddled is because like the oil companies, car companies need to make a profit too. What better way to do that then to sell you a P.O.S. that they KNOW is going to take a major dump within a few years? They arent going to make anything substantial off of a '65 Mustang, '42 Willys MB, or '71 Dart that lasts and lasts for decades because theyre simple enough to be infinitely rebuildable. But if your battery takes a ***** in 5-6 years then you have a few options: pay the $3K-$8K to replace it, or you can trade it for a new one and take a total bath on your trade since it needs 'major overhauling'. They win, you lose. And if you have any sense at all, then you know that NONE of this is any good for the person who wants to tune, hot rod, modify, or just do their own maintenance on a vehicle.

Guys, dont get the wrong idea: Im all for newer technology, provided its a true upgrade. Im all for efficiency, cleaner emissions, better mpgs, etc. However, Im of the opinion that you can develop technology that increases performance, delivers more mpg per drop of fuel and is more reliable. Fuel injection is a perfect example of this, since the small sacrifice of a computer and some added complication came back and paid off BIG TIME in terms of better performance, more mpgs, and better driveablilty for the DD. If youre getting more hp and mpgs out of a gallon of gas, then the side effect is cleaner emissions which makes EVERYONE happy. Power is efficiency and a powerful, effiecient engine by definition runs clean as well.
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Unread 08-21-2011, 01:02 PM   #29
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folks dont mind but

if its hybrid its not jeep anymore
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Unread 08-21-2011, 01:42 PM   #30
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I'm in the UK right now, for a couple months, while I'm here I had the company rent a Land Rover so I could go into the trail areas. It's a 6cyl diesel, hard top, and I'm getting 30mpg, not too shabby. There is no reason why Jeep can't pull this off, or better.

The LR weighs in at 5500 lbs (auto trans), a Jeep (from their website) comes in at 3785 (auto trans). The LR is longer, and just as boxy as a Wrangler. If the Brits can do it, why can't Jeep?
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