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Unread 03-16-2008, 10:15 PM   #31
aircruiser
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i have an electric 4x4 offroader






it will be a jeep soon enough too

but dc motors can go underwater, i use a cup of water to break in my dc motors for my r/cs, just oil up the bearings afterwards. very simple. you would just have to change brushes like engine oil and every now and then, unless they could make a brushless motor to power a real jeep but then that would be friggen expensive and not water friendly. but mud doesnt do dc motors good either. mud has all sorts of crap in it that will eat an electric motor alive.

example

perfect running bronco ta02, ran fine until the motor went underwater and never ran over half power since



and it died



maybe it was the ford body...

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Unread 03-16-2008, 10:38 PM   #32
redhatman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aircruiser View Post
maybe it was the ford body...
Finally you found the problem...

I dont think we were talking about RC Trucks here grant
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Unread 03-17-2008, 02:51 PM   #33
aircruiser
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same difference

dc motors would just crap out with all the crap in the mud. it would be a pain to have to rebuild a motor after every mud run
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Unread 03-19-2008, 11:57 AM   #34
Dr. Internet
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Very interesting thread. This is something I have been interested in for years. Yes, electric motors are used to power very large train locomotives; they are also used to power ships! The motors can be sealed against contamination by dirt, water, dust, mud, etc. One of the big advantages is that you don't need a "drive train" anymore. No axles, diffs, transmission, transfer case, or drive shafts. Think about that weight reduction in terms of HP:Weight ratio! Of course the motors must all be controlled by computer to maximize performance and efficiency. On the interstate, flat and fast, only one motor will do the work, while on a tough trail, all four might be working.

You have to separate the prime mover (electric motor) from the power source when talking about this. The power for the motors can come from a long extension cord (take a look at super large strip mining shovels), batteries, some kind of engine (diesel, gasoline, biogas, propane, steam) turning a generator, or a fuel cell running on hydrogen.

The last is the best option, IMO. NASA made them work in space, we should be able to make them work here. Several Japanese car makers are spending millions to develop efficient and cheap fuel cells.

Where will we get the H2, you ask? Several options: make it yourself; after all any high school chemistry lab can separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. There could be a set of stations, like the propane tank exchanges (for the BBQ) that are everywhere; just pull out the empty and plug in the full. Eventually, the energy companies (they don't call themselves oil companies anymore) will convert or install new pipelines to distribute H2.
The advantages to H2 are, no noxious byproducts (water), light weight, most prevalent element on earth (maybe in the universe), and it could be cheap.

A concern raised above regarding heat in the winter - fuel cells generate heat, and you could use an auxilliary electric heater, or put on a coat and some boots.

Another common concern about using H2 in a vehicle - it explodes. Well, what do you think gasoline does? Yet, when is the last time you heard of a gas station exploding, or a car blowing up. Yes, there are car fires, and most of them do not result in fatalities. More people are killed at train grade crossings than by car fires.

Regarding the cost, as with any new technology, it will cost more at the onset. The first PC cost over $5,000 and did not have a hard drive! Look at the changes in only 30 years. Also, this is a "hot" topic politically, so everyone in government will jump on board with tax breaks, green credits and all kinds of junk to punish the bad people driving gasoline powered SUVs and reward the good people driving H2:Electric Jeeps!
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Unread 03-19-2008, 09:45 PM   #35
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I hadn't thought of the fuel cell concept. Question though: what do you about freezing winter temps?
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Unread 03-20-2008, 09:30 AM   #36
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What if the electric motors were used with portal hubs at each wheel? The portal hubs would allow the motors to be mounted higher up and away from the elements. May not be as efficient turning those gears but the motor protection would be nice.
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Unread 03-20-2008, 12:19 PM   #37
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RE: water freezing in the winter -- I think the water disposal system is not like the muffler, cat, tailpipe we have now. I think it is more like the AC drain. Remember the water is hot when it leaves the fuel cell. It could be captured in a resevoir (windshield washer?) or just dripped onto the ground.

RE: hubs -- I also like the idea of portal hubs, which Chrysler used on one of their latest concept Jeeps. The trade offs are weight, cost, and reliability vs performance. That's certainly the way to go if one of the design goals is extreme ground clearance.
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Unread 03-20-2008, 03:48 PM   #38
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Dr. Internet,

You hit my point exactly. I would take 8 inches of snow any day over an 1/8 inch of ice.

There were more than a few times it I drove with wind-chill's well below 0 in bumper to bumper traffic trying to get out of downtown. The last thing that I need is a few hundred cars in front of me dripping water onto the road. Also, you've got to remember, the water might be warm when it comes out, but my car has been sitting outside in sub-zero temps for 7 or more hours.

Don't take this the wrong way, I think fuel cell generators would be great in places like Texas...just don't buy one in Alaska. We got to use the right technology in the right place. For a Michigan 'E'4wd, give me a gas generator.
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Unread 03-21-2008, 03:01 AM   #39
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bnther36.

I hear you and agree. I would not want 100's of cars making fresh ice in front of me, either. I still contend, though, that this issue can be resolved. Question is, how much will it cost. I still remember when you filled your windshield washer bottle 3/4 with water and topped it off with alcohol to prevent freezing in the winter (I grew up in Missouri).
One solution comes to mind, use the water in the interior heating system somehow.
One of our biggest problems, regarding cost, reliability, performance, efficiency and so forth comes from the manufacturer's desire to produce a vehicle that works well everywhere and does everything well. You and I know there ain't no such animal. Maybe if they changed their engineering requirements and said - build a Jeep for the area from central US to central CAN, and another one for central CAN to Northern Alaska, and a third one for central US to Panama, I expect we would see some very different vehicles. For instance, down here, we run the A/C 8 - 9 months a year and the heater in my TJ has been turned on three times in almost 4 years. I would much rather have a vehicle optimized for my region and leave it to me to decide if I want a rock crawler, beach buggy, DD, hunting ride or whatever. If I decide to make one that does a bunch of stuff, it probably won't be the best at any of them, but it will be my choice.
Sorry to wander so far off track, but i think you see where I stand. Given time and money, almost any engineering problem can be solved. Sometimes the best solution is to say, "The solutions are too expensive" and let it go.
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Unread 03-21-2008, 07:44 AM   #40
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Dr. Internet,

You pointed out something that was obvious but that I hadn't really thought of till now. I could drive 20 hours, either north or south,and expirience a real change in enviornment. Building one vehicle for such a wide range of climates has got to be a real challenge.

I do think that the electric Jeep is the right track for Jeep. I think the trick would be to build a modular platform that could be adapted, or optimized as you put it, for each type of enviornment. This brings to mind the JSF project. One jet built for 3 very different sets of requirments. This replaced the start up costs of 3 completely different platforms with that a of a single jet. And if startup costs go down for the manufacturer then it stands to reason purchase costs for the consumer would go down as well.

We'll see how it goes. I have been less than impressed with Jeep since Chrysler took over. Personally, I would like to see Jeep as a single entity as opposed to a money-making tool to abuse.

My 2 cents.
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Unread 03-21-2008, 04:26 PM   #41
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there would have to be something to generate heat for the winter. i like the idea of electric motors but without a generator(engine) there is not enough heat from electric motors to heat up the cabin. I,m still trying to figure out those hybirds out on how they warm up your car because they say the gas engine does not come on until the car starts moving( so you cant heat up your car in the winter and when the engine comes on it will be cold).
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Unread 03-28-2008, 09:03 PM   #42
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Electric heater or thermal pipes to transfer the heat from the electric motors to the interior?
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Unread 04-15-2008, 12:24 AM   #43
b1gkyl3
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see remote control 4x4 trucks
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Unread 04-15-2008, 10:33 PM   #44
redhatman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b1gkyl3 View Post
see remote control 4x4 trucks
Not the same thing....I have had many. Its a bit different when lives are at risk. Here is one of mine, lithium and brushless powered.

[YT]http://youtube.com/watch?v=vZq2P76wz3I[/YT]
__________________
-Pat

I am now a dealer for Iron Rock Off Road
I offer the same great products you already know about,
the same low prices you have been seeing, and with
the same experienced customer support, but I can offer it nearly 24/7

"Project Dirty Princess"
5.9 ZJ 7" IRO, 35s, 8.8, hp30, locked, blah blah

"Project Grow A Set"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMARJEEP View Post
Those tires look freakin awesome Redhat... took the ZJ up a notch in my book. Now you're at notch 2.
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Unread 04-16-2008, 01:37 PM   #45
CB3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnther36 View Post
I've been reading up on some of these electric cars and apparently electric motors can have a fair amount of torque. I didn't realize this but trains are driven by electric with a diesel generator powering the motors. Has anyone ever tried this with a 4wd? Would this be practical for off-roading? Would they be able to keep the motors dry for those 'go deep' excursions?
I saw on the history channel that the US military is testing a prototype, full size electric 4x4, which has a diesel engine generating electricity for 4 electric motors. One motor per wheel.

So it's a true 4 wheel drive just like if it had 4X and axle lockers, except that it's better because can turn easily while receiving power to all four wheels.

Apparently it is water proofed enough, or supposedly so.

Still in testing phase. I suppose the real test is whether it is waterproof enough.

It's also supposed to be reasonably fuel efficient.

P.S. - generating heat for interior wouldn't be a problem since it's got a diesel engine and radiator making power for the wheels.

Also, this is a very high torque arrangement because each wheel has it's own motor and works like a Unimog axle with compound whatever that's called, if I understood correctly.
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