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Unread 04-12-2013, 04:28 PM   #16
dmill89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starscream View Post
My thoughts are, your logic is completely flawed. Factory computed MPG is calculated indoors on a dynometer where the vehicle is not moving, so there is no wind resistence being factored in. That is why the Patriot and Compass have the same estimated MPG. This has been a criticism from the EPA for a long time, that no real world driving is used to make these estimates. And by calling them estimates, the manufacturer is taking away any libality from the fact that your real MPG will vary from what is advertised.
Of course from Chrysler/Jeep's and every other automaker's perspective, does real world fuel economy actually matter at all?

After all the EPA estimates are what are used for CAFE certification and are the only fuel economy specs many (most) consumers will ever look at when buying a vehicle.

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Unread 04-12-2013, 10:01 PM   #17
1955_OW_LT1
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The EPA estimated standard is the best there is when it comes to a true model comparison. The only variable being the vehicle. If i hear the Dodge gets (pulling numbers out of my ***) 18mpg and the Ford gets 19mpg in the same test it tells me as a consumer the Ford has better mileage. Thats why they are stated directly as estimates. Its not real world, its a controlled experiment basically.
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Unread 04-14-2013, 05:48 AM   #18
silvanus
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Atmospheric variants and quality of terrain play a major role in economic travel. How many times have heard from those with killer mpg say " Man my car running crappy, I'm only getting 27 mpg when it should be at 35 after a few months of ownership! Climate plays a huge role in MPG. They don't understand the difference between controlled physical dynamics and the Natural One!

Jeep is in the CAR ( not TRUCK )business and has gone full blown " Rover " with this crossover! In a few years, Jeep will go retro and reintroduce a peasant friendly vehicle made of metal named the " CJ " frame and all!
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Unread 04-14-2013, 02:41 PM   #19
dmill89
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Originally Posted by silvanus View Post
In a few years, Jeep will go retro and reintroduce a peasant friendly vehicle made of metal named the " CJ " frame and all!
Oh how I wish. If I could buy a new Jeep had an all-steel body/frame/bumpers, steel dash, vinyl seats, no carpet, electric nothing (i.e. maunal locks, crank windows, etc.), no-airbags, and an I6 or V8 I would do so in a heartbeat.
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Unread 04-14-2013, 02:50 PM   #20
silvanus
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Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
oh how i wish. If i could buy a new jeep had an all-steel body/frame/bumpers, steel dash, vinyl seats, no carpet, electric nothing (i.e. Maunal locks, crank windows, etc.), no-airbags, and an i6 or v8 i would do so in a heartbeat.
this ^
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Unread 04-18-2013, 09:33 PM   #21
Butchy_Boy
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my 05 TJ is steel body,frame,bumpers..........no carpet and manual locks and windows and an I 6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moreismore69 View Post
ha! now I'm not saying I don't love our cherokee or that I haven't seen a few good looking cherokees, but either you are giving your xj too much credit or you've done 4x4'd yourself retarded, girls don't drop em for cherokees, now wranglers on the other hand...:rofl:
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Unread 05-07-2013, 10:47 PM   #22
johnqh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starscream View Post
My thoughts are, your logic is completely flawed. Factory computed MPG is calculated indoors on a dynometer where the vehicle is not moving, so there is no wind resistence being factored in. That is why the Patriot and Compass have the same estimated MPG. This has been a criticism from the EPA for a long time, that no real world driving is used to make these estimates. And by calling them estimates, the manufacturer is taking away any libality from the fact that your real MPG will vary from what is advertised.
Learn something everyday! I didn't know that. Thanks.
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Unread 10-28-2013, 03:01 PM   #23
Rockin1
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Instead of making Jeeps that appeal to "Jeep" people, Chrysler (Fiat) is making cookie cutter crossover SUVs in order to compete in the soccer mom niche of the market. Nothing in the 2014 Jeep line up excites me, except of course the Wranglers. Grand Cherokees are great Jeeps, but look like any other crossover at the mall.
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Unread 10-28-2013, 07:47 PM   #24
Rob K
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Originally Posted by Rockin1 View Post
Instead of making Jeeps that appeal to "Jeep" people, Chrysler (Fiat) is making cookie cutter crossover SUVs in order to compete in the soccer mom niche of the market. Nothing in the 2014 Jeep line up excites me, except of course the Wranglers. Grand Cherokees are great Jeeps, but look like any other crossover at the mall.
It's most likely because they nearly went out of business. They are blending in and making what everyone else is selling instead taking risks and standing out from the crowd. Sometime in the future, when they have a stable footing, they might make something cool again. Fortunately they still have the Wrangler, but those are financially out of reach for a lot of us already. The future of Jeep will be interesting to say the least.
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Unread 10-28-2013, 10:29 PM   #25
222Doc
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Have had few jeeps in my day and started wheeling in the 70's. Todays Jk is like a love hate relation ship, or a expensive hooker. They can be ridden hard but cost a lot.
my 012 I am turning into my last 66 so says the old lady.
But It has NO airbags nor the explosive in the seat belts. No carpet, or factory seats no back seat. Doors top never, it is a jeep. once the poser motor goes so does the rest of the drive train and in goes a 6L80 and a 5.3 and it will still get about the same MPG.

I do not see the wrangler staying to long people. It will be replaced. They delayed the "update" I hear. so that means pump out the Jk till perhaps Caligula Hillary takes over and we are back to horses. Though that might save me money in the end?

One day people will even look back at the Jk and dream of real Jeeps.....lololololol.. ill be dead but one day.
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Unread 10-29-2013, 09:48 PM   #26
SchizophrenicMC
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Here's what I have to say: There are thousands of Jeep purists. Several thousand people want hardcore no-frills Jeeps. There are millions of car buyers each year. Several million people want more civilized vehicles. Even if every Jeep purist was in the market to spend $25-40,000 on a new vehicle, there wouldn't be enough of you to justify the cost of developing a Jeep just for you. That didn't stop Jeep from trying- the JK's base model has the minimum number of airbags allowed, manual windows and locks, no standard air conditioning, and a manual transmission. The only plastic body parts are the fender flares and lights. It still sits on solid axles, it still has standard part-time 2-speed 4WD, it still has a removable top and doors, a windshield that folds down, a full size spare, and an air intake that's as high as it could possibly be in the vehicle. It even makes more power than any CJ-style Jeep ever has before. (285hp/270lbft as standard equipment! The 4.0 ain't got nothing on that!) Jeep then took that basic vehicle and added things to it to make it appealing to the mass market, like power locks and windows, an automatic transmission, comfortable leather seats, A/C, infotainment, even a 4-door model. The JK and JKU are together 1/7th of Chrysler's total sales volume.

But that basic JK is all Chrysler can afford to offer the Jeep purist today. Developing a new vehicle is very expensive. Billions of dollars. So they have to sell millions of vehicles to break even, let alone profit. Even the JK wasn't profitable for a few years after it went into production. And so, if Jeep wants to remain relevant, they have to make cars that will sell on the mass market, not just for the few purists who can afford a new one. Your average buyer expects a few things that your average Jeep purist doesn't: A/C, comfort, on-road handling, acceptable fuel economy, et cetera. If Jeep doesn't offer that, these buyers will find someone else who does. And if they're not buying new Jeeps, Jeep doesn't make enough money to stay in business. So, Jeep has to cater to those wishes as best it can, while staying within its own DNA (which is not, I might add, stripped-out basics, but rather go-anywhere, do-anything) or else disappear. If Jeep only made vehicles for the purist, Jeep wouldn't be around anymore and that'd just suck for everyone here. I'd rather have Jeep make aerodynamic vehicles that can go offroad if asked, than not make vehicles at all. They are, after all, the American legend. Be a damn shame if they disappeared.

So with that said, aerodynamics are important- even key to fuel economy. The WK2 has better fuel economy than the ZJ despite packing on an extra 1000lbs, because of 2 things: more efficient engines and superior aerodynamics. The drag coefficient of the ZJ is .46, whereas the WK2's is .37. That's significant. The WK2 also has a more efficient set of engines that do more with less. Sorry to say, the 4.0 was never a powerful or efficient engine. It's just unacceptable by today's standards. It's also really long and difficult to package, given modern regulations for safety and such. As such, the ZJ scores 15mpg on Fuelly, whereas the WK2 hovers between 18 and 19mpg. That's real-world scores, not EPA dyno BS. 1000lbs and 100hp added and it still gains MPG. Even the Wrangler has improved from 14mpg in 1990 to 17mpg now, despite being bigger and heavier, because it's more efficient and aerodynamic.

Now, the Wrangler will always be the "pure" Jeep. It'll always be the Jeep-shaped solid-axle mobile with the top that comes off and the comparatively bad aerodynamics. Jeep's not dumb enough to ruin that. But the rest of the line has to have appeal to the mass market for reasons that the mass market wants. So, they'll have to have better aerodynamics and creature comforts. Again, better that than no Jeep. If it has a vertical slat grille and "Jeep" emblazoned proudly on its hood, it's a Jeep to me, and I'm happy enough with the line Jeep has built. It makes economic sense to me.
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