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FS: 2007-2013 Jeep Wrangler "HALO" Angel Eye KitRockridge 4WD IS Taking Zone Offroad Suspension Lift Kits End of Summer Sale, 20% OFF!

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Unread 05-07-2012, 06:48 PM   #31
Eric1080
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blasphemy. all of it. it probably has independent front and rear suspension, a horrible awd transfer case, leather everything, electric everything. and as unreliable as all get out. even my zj (thats a 98 gc for the newbs) is way more nice (and capable) than any new "jeep" will ever be.

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Unread 05-09-2012, 07:22 AM   #32
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I don't know. I seem to remember the old Grand Wagoneers being pretty posh for their era. Leather seats, air, pw/pl, ect. That being said I don't want to see a Jeep branded Durango. I'm fine if they use the chassis, but it should be it's own animal. I could see how a modernized version of the Grand Wagoneer's style would look killer blended into the Durango's chassis. If the Grand Wagoneer was the epitome of off road capable luxury in it's day, why should it be any different now? I'd hope we wouldn't see anything like a giant Liberty "jet" where people are buying an off road capable vehicle with low profile tires on it, but given that seems to be the way things are going style-wise it's bound to happen. I think I'd rather see an actual Grand Wagoneer. A big, luxurious, but capable SUV. Something on some big tires that's as able to take people to the theatre as it is up the side of a mountain. To me, that's what this vehicle should be. Not just some Escalade clone. Unfortunately, that's probably just what we'll see.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 04:02 PM   #33
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I don't know. I seem to remember the old Grand Wagoneers being pretty posh for their era. Leather seats, air, pw/pl, ect. That being said I don't want to see a Jeep branded Durango. I'm fine if they use the chassis, but it should be it's own animal. I could see how a modernized version of the Grand Wagoneer's style would look killer blended into the Durango's chassis. If the Grand Wagoneer was the epitome of off road capable luxury in it's day, why should it be any different now? I'd hope we wouldn't see anything like a giant Liberty "jet" where people are buying an off road capable vehicle with low profile tires on it, but given that seems to be the way things are going style-wise it's bound to happen. I think I'd rather see an actual Grand Wagoneer. A big, luxurious, but capable SUV. Something on some big tires that's as able to take people to the theatre as it is up the side of a mountain. To me, that's what this vehicle should be. Not just some Escalade clone. Unfortunately, that's probably just what we'll see.
I think what we'll see is a better Jeep Commander Limited and above to be honest.

The Commander was a capable 4x4, but also was a pretty nice vehicle that could be decked out to be a very nice truck for its time. I don't think the Wagoneer will be revolutionary, it will be evolutionary off the WK2. I'm sure it will be a super luxurious truck at top trim levels, very much like the WK2.

It won't sell if it doesn't have all the toys of a luxury vehicle. I would almost guarantee it will come with 18s and 20s, possibly with an optional set of 22s. I bet most of them will come with Quadralift, and never see more offroading than parking halfway on the lawn one day.

I would also bet that if you decided to buy a second set of steel wheels or other smaller wheels and bigger or snow tires, you'll have a very competent vehicle. The vast majority of people that will buy them will not use them in that way. Those who intend to will likely buy an extra set or 2 of wheels.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 08:15 PM   #34
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it was nice back in the day. but....... it was also capable. it was easily lifted making room for more capability. newer vehicles have so much crap. tmps, traction control, brake assist, hill start assist, butt massagers, heated tinting mirrors. all the technology is nice but offroad (thats what a jeep is for dont forget) that technology adds weight, cost and another element to fail. jeep can build some dang nice suvs (Grand Cherokees) and some capable ones (wrangler rubincon) but they cant seem to find the middle ground (solid axles, lockers, 33s stock, delete the carpet and other luxury items)


sorry if this is a rant but i really want a new jeep truck (not to replace but sit next too)
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Unread 05-09-2012, 08:47 PM   #35
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it was nice back in the day. but....... it was also capable. it was easily lifted making room for more capability. newer vehicles have so much crap. tmps, traction control, brake assist, hill start assist, butt massagers, heated tinting mirrors. all the technology is nice but offroad (thats what a jeep is for dont forget) that technology adds weight, cost and another element to fail. jeep can build some dang nice suvs (Grand Cherokees) and some capable ones (wrangler rubincon) but they cant seem to find the middle ground (solid axles, lockers, 33s stock, delete the carpet and other luxury items)


sorry if this is a rant but i really want a new jeep truck (not to replace but sit next too)
I want a Jeep truck, too. So much that I'm debating pulling my girl's great uncle's old Willy's pick up out of a field and trying to restore it. It's definitely time for Jeep to return to the pick up game. Especially now that Ford has discontinued the Ranger until it's redesigned. (feel free to interpret that as ruined) However, I don't see Jeep getting into the pick up game as long as they are owned by Chrysler. Too much competition for RAM.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 08:58 PM   #36
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this could be the opportunity we need. ranger down, dodge is now ram and focusing on 1500,2500 and 3500. chevrolet? a nice mid size jeep truck could sweep the market. fiat may bring new opportunities if possible. but still restore the willys.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 08:59 PM   #37
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they've been tempting us with a jeep truck for years. i doubt they build a grand wagoneer first. they are testing the market as they have been.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 09:08 PM   #38
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this could be the opportunity we need. ranger down, dodge is now ram and focusing on 1500,2500 and 3500. chevrolet? a nice mid size jeep truck could sweep the market. fiat may bring new opportunities if possible. but still restore the willys.
It would seem to be the ideal opportunity. Though, I'd almost worry that they'd bring their usual RAM approach to the design. Instead of treating it like a Jeep truck. Which should be a whole different animal.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 10:15 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Eric1080 View Post
it was nice back in the day. but....... it was also capable. it was easily lifted making room for more capability. newer vehicles have so much crap. tmps, traction control, brake assist, hill start assist, butt massagers, heated tinting mirrors. all the technology is nice but offroad (thats what a jeep is for dont forget) that technology adds weight, cost and another element to fail. jeep can build some dang nice suvs (Grand Cherokees) and some capable ones (wrangler rubincon) but they cant seem to find the middle ground (solid axles, lockers, 33s stock, delete the carpet and other luxury items)


sorry if this is a rant but i really want a new jeep truck (not to replace but sit next too)
Let's not forget, Jeep is a company. Luxury-like sells more than rugged off-road vehicles. I've said this in either this or a similar thread: if we want Jeep to produce something like the original Wagoneer or XJ, then we should simply by the original one. Most of us are mechanically inclined enough to keep it in running shape.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 09:34 PM   #40
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they've been tempting us with a jeep truck for years. i doubt they build a grand wagoneer first. they are testing the market as they have been.
Mopar offers a conversion for the Wrangler Unlimited now. If the conversion kit sells, they'll likely make it into a full on model. Realistically though, the demand for such a vehicle is hugely low.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 09:41 PM   #41
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Actually, demand for the JK-8 Independence kit has been more than double expected. They've sold about 1000 them so far, IIRC. (Which doesn't sound like much, but it's about 5x as many Brute kits AEV has sold so far)

The conversion kit was for the same reason as many other recent Mopar projects, from the latest Jeep Safari prototypes to kits like the JK-8 Independence and Ram Runner-they don't have the money or engineering resources right now to design real niche vehicles, since the bread-and-butter Chrysler models need the work a lot more, but the kits can be produced reasonably quickly and easily and give Chrysler a good idea as to whether there's real demand for these products, or if it's just the Internet overstating demand.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 09:58 PM   #42
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Actually, demand for the JK-8 Independence kit has been more than double expected. They've sold about 1000 them so far, IIRC. (Which doesn't sound like much, but it's about 5x as many Brute kits AEV has sold so far)

The conversion kit was for the same reason as many other recent Mopar projects, from the latest Jeep Safari prototypes to kits like the JK-8 Independence and Ram Runner-they don't have the money or engineering resources right now to design real niche vehicles, since the bread-and-butter Chrysler models need the work a lot more, but the kits can be produced reasonably quickly and easily and give Chrysler a good idea as to whether there's real demand for these products, or if it's just the Internet overstating demand.
Very true on all points. I'd add that selling 1000 in under a year isn't too bad when you consider it's an extra cost over top of a Wrangler Unlimited.

That said, I do think the demand for a Jeep pickup is in fact, the internet overstating the demand. A vehicle like that would easily be in the $30-40k range, maybe more, and it seems like a lot of the people who clamor for something like that are also the types who complain that new Jeeps are too expensive and have too much stuff in them.

The Grand Wagoneer will sell more, and sell at higher margin than a Wrangler type pickup would.
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Unread 05-12-2012, 10:49 PM   #43
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If they were to do it today, a Wrangler pickup would cost that much, yeah. But if introduced with a new platform designed to accommodate it, prices would be in-line with the rest of the lineup.

One thing Chrysler is, arguably, the world leader in is flex manufacturing. The WK Grand Cherokee/XK Commander and the LX 300 and Charger/LY Challenger are excellent examples.

A Gladiator certainly wouldn't be a volume model, but when sold both in North America and overseas, it has its place. Plus, the Ford Ranger is gone and the Chevy Colorado may or may not be sold in North America. There's still a place for compact pickups.

A Grand Wagoneer will certainly have a wider margin, but, as it stands, the Durango sells ~50,000 a year, and it starts way cheaper than the Grand Wagoneer would. The Grand Wagoneer is a ~5,000 a year model, optimistically. A Gladiator would still only be ~30,000 a year model, but Chrysler's models and their associated plant costs have typically amortized to 100,000 units a year to remain profitable-as long as the Wrangler stays near its present sales numbers, the Gladiator can afford to be a niche model.

That said, depending on the optioning, there's certainly an opportunity for it to turn into a popular fleet model-the main reason that fleet buyers loved the Ford Ranger was because it was cheap, simple, basic, rugged and efficient. If the Gladiator's base trim stays in-line with typical Wrangler base trims, especially if the rumours of a Rhinoliner interior option are true, it could reach the price point to take over that market.

Niche models on their own platforms are almost never profitable, but if you can work an existing profitable platform to suit, then they usually make sense-the Ford Raptor is a perfect example of this. Not to mention all the modern muscle cars-the Challenger, Camaro and Mustang are all based off of popular full-size sedans (The Dodge Charger, Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon, respectively)
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Unread 05-13-2012, 03:25 PM   #44
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I think you're overestimating how many people would buy a pickup, and underestimating how many will buy the GW. The Commander sold 88k in 06, not even a full model year, despite being heavy, not that spacious, not that nice inside, and expensive. A GW will pull in conquest buyers from luxury makes just like the top trim levels of the GC (I personally hadn't considered a Jeep other than an SRT8, and was looking at Lexuses or Land Rovers, but the Overland flat out beat the competition in my eyes, let alone the price bonus).

Midsize trucks have died of because only the Japanese have figured out how to sell them alongside fullsize trucks. All the Americans gave up because nobody wants to spend $30k on a midsize pickup when they can get a nice full size for the same money.
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Unread 05-13-2012, 04:00 PM   #45
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You're off on the price of the Grand Wagoneer, though. The Commander sold for between $28,000 and $40,000 for the most part, the Grand Wagoneer wouldn't even start below $50,000.

And, no offense, but if you're looking at, and I'm assuming able to afford, BMWs and Range Rovers, you're not the average Jeep consumer. Most Jeeps retail in the $25,000 mark. The Grand Wagoneer will start around $50,000 and probably move off lots around the $60,000-$70,000 range. IIRC, loaded models will be pushing $100,000-half again as much as a loaded Grand Cherokee SRT-8.

As for compact trucks, the American offerings have all had their respective problems, much more important than price tags. The Ranger hadn't had a real update since the early '90s. The Colorado/Canyon had two engine choices that were both awful. The Dakota, in the end, was uglier than a bag of smashed buttholes and was within $1000 of a similarly-equipped Ram 1500 and didn't offer a significant mileage increase.

The Tacoma and Frontier have two things on their side-an appropriate scaling of their larger predecessors, in all respects, and their brand names-Toyota and Nissan are both known for compact pickups and have 50 years of North American sales to back it up-it's the same reason why the Titan and Tundra have largely been sales failures, despite being generally competitive (The Titan's really falling behind, but the Tundra is still decent)-the domestics have 90 years of sales recognition behind it.

Nobody wants a $30,000 starting pickup, no. But they do want ones that start in the 20s-a Gladiator, priced competitively with the Wrangler Unlimited and the Tacoma
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