stuff in oil...like metal kind of stuff

dirt machine · 03-09-2007, 11:07 AM

2 months ago I drove 1200 miles in one day. Oil had spewed out onto everything. I had redone my head gasket one year ago, incorrectly, so I figured it was the head gasket.

I bought a 2nd cherokee so I could fix the first when it got warmer, then sell the 2nd.

Yesterday I started. I removed the oil, and I think there was stuff in the oil. I couldn't tell what it was, but maybe little flakes of something, maybe just dirt or stop leak from the radiator that I used when I knew the gasket I made was bad.

I am going to remove the head today. I want to know what I should look for to see if something else could be wrong. I guy at the auto parts store suggested looking down the cylinders for scoring. I have a blowby problem, so I was thinking maybe one of the piston rings went bad or something like that. I have never gotten this deep into things, so I want to check here first what I should be looking for.

Other symptoms are non existant. Oil got everywhere and made funny noises on the belts and stuff. No stalling, starts fine, runs fine, no overheating. Please advise, thanks.

Daniel

AZ Jeff · 03-09-2007, 11:23 AM

The first question I would ask is HOW did oil get "everywhere"? Oil doesn't just fly out of an engine that is working normally.

The only way LOTS of oil exits an engine is when a opening that is not there is created. That can be a failed gasket/seal, or a hole made by mechanical failure.

On a 4.0, the most common gasket/seal type failures that would cause large leaks are the oil pressure sender failing, or the O-rings on the oil filter adapter failing.

The most common mechanical failures that cause instantaneous oil leaks are a connecting rod breaking and putting a hole in the block, or a harmonic balancer disintegrating such that it grinds through the timing chain cover.

Have you looked for these types of issues?

Mountainwinds · 03-09-2007, 11:26 AM

The only metal stuff I can think of that might be in the oil, would be rod or main bearing material, or metal from the cylinder wall and rings. If coolant did not get into the oil, then the stop leak would not be in the oil.
Blowby might also be a leaking head gasket, with the pressure leaking into the oil return.
Before removing the head gasket look for signs of a leak at those places.

Vaj · 03-09-2007, 01:32 PM

Dude, I guarantee you that what happened is that all those little metal flakes that are in the coolant stop leak you put in, have now gone through the hole in your head gasket and into the tops of your cylinders. Then all those little flakes destroyed the inside of your cylinders and rings. If you pull your head expect to see alot of damage in the upper cylinders.

That crap should have a warning label on it saying "Not for leaking heads or head gaskets!!"

****ty luck.

AZ Jeff · 03-09-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaj

Dude, I guarantee you that what happened is that all those little metal flakes that are in the coolant stop leak you put in......

Vaj brings up a good point. If I understand you correctly, you put a new head gasket on, and then it leaked, so you threw in some of that radiator stop leak crap, hoping that would fix it?

If that's the case, it's no wonder you have problems now. Band-aids on a brand new engine repair are not a good plan.......

dirt machine · 03-09-2007, 10:54 PM

Last time I did the head gasket and did it incorrectly, I went to JEEPFORUM.COM and got the advice to use stop leak. Nobody said it would be a problem for a head gasket. They said it would be a problem for the heater core, which is totally clogged now and blows only cold, but I cared more about the head because I was moving the next week (from CA to CO) and didn't have time to fix my original mistake.

I pulled the head and inspected the cylinders and they look fine.

With respect to oil everywhere, I realize that there must be some hole. But look, it was all over the manifold, all over the belt, and all over the left side of the engine, as if someone had poured it all over. Yes I know this sounds ridiculous, but if it was an obvious thing, I wouldn't be asking.

What I want to know was answered partially by mountainwinds:

1. Where could metal flakes come from?
2. Why could oil get everywhere.

My theory on the oil is that it blew out the CCV hose. I figured that with water in the cylinders, it was probably building some funk pressure and just blew the oil out through the top of the valve cover. The CCV hose was off of the air filter housing, so that is the most logical solution. The metal in the oil is different because I haven't found anything. I did find metal flakes on the head bolts, but I figured that was not exposed to the internals of the engine anyways.

I will take in the head to get it compression tested and then if it is not cracked, I will have it milled flat, replace the valve stem seals, and replace the combo manifold gasket, head gasket, tstat gasket, flush oil and radiator fluid a couple of times, blast out the heater core with the garden hose and an adapter, and hopefully everything will work.

Thanks for the input so far. I will try to look again at those rings, but I don't see any scoring on the walls of the cylinder so I think it's fine.

Mountainwinds · 03-10-2007, 02:20 PM

No scouring is a really good sign. Maybe just a head job (no pun intended) new gasket, and maybe an engine flush to get out left over metal particles.

n20jeep · 03-10-2007, 02:41 PM

when you did your head...did you block off all the oil gallys when cleaning the surface of the block...

**kg4kzv** · 03-10-2007, 02:44 PM

AZ Jeff, Brings up a good point too. The harmonic damper could have cut through the timing cover that would cause both the leak and the metal in the oil and cost nothing to eye ball and check.

Chris

dirt machine · 03-10-2007, 02:57 PM

What is a harmonic damper? What is an oil gally? Thanks.

AZ Jeff · 03-10-2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirt machine

What is a harmonic damper? What is an oil gally? Thanks.

A harmonic balancer, AKA "Vibration Dampner", is the pulley on the front of the crankshaft, and is what drives the serpentine accessory drive belt. On the 4.0 engine, these consist of two pieces--a hub, and an outer ring, which are bonded together by a rubber joint. This rubber joint fails in old age, and the ring can "walk" forward or backward relative to the hub. If it walks rearward, it can contact the aluminum timing chain cover, and grind through it. Since the timing chain runs in oil, such an event would cause oil to spray everywhere (as well as making a hideous noise).

The oil gallery is the main passage(s) that take oil sent under pressure from the oil pump, and deliver it to the various parts of the engine, under pressure.

On a 4.0 engine, the main oil gallery passage is about 1/2 in or so in diameter and runs above and parallel to the camshaft for it's entire length. Holes from the main gallery are drilled down to each of the main bearings, thus providing pressurized oil to each of the crank journals. The oil gallery also feeds all the camshaft bearings and each valve lifter with pressurized oil. The front camshaft bearing allows oil to be fed to the timing chain.

Oil reaches the cylinder head by the action of the hydraulic valve lifters, which are mini-oil pumps and pump oil up each of the hollow pushrods. Once the oil reaches the top of the pushrod, it spills out onto the rocker arms, and from there, it drains by gravity back to the crankcase.

All cam and crank bearings in the 4.0 are journal type, meaning they MUST have pressurized oil in them at ALL times when running, or else they will gall/score/sieze.

dirt machine · 03-12-2007, 11:33 AM

The harmonic damper...there was a noise, kind of a winding noise, which is why I checked under the hood. How do I check to see if this harmonic damper is bad? Do I just unbolt it, or what. Very important, thanks.

rob92xj · 03-12-2007, 11:40 AM

Check the side of the block carefully, you may have had a rod break or something like that when a rod breaks it tends to crack the block and send oil everywhere.

dirt machine · 03-12-2007, 11:46 AM

I removed the head already. Everything inside there looks fine. How do I check the harmonic balancer? Also, if it did chuck metal everywhere, would replacing the harmonic balancer and flushing the oil help, or am I screwed? Thanks.

**kg4kzv** · 03-12-2007, 12:22 PM

Just look at the harmonic balancer and see if the outer metal ring is hitting the timing cover or the rubber has walked out from the center. The timing chain could be a suspect as well I'm not sure about the 4.0 (I have yet to mess with the guts of one never need to) But in some engines the cam sprocket was made of aluminum covered in nylon once the coating wore off the chain would cut into the aluminum the 4.0 might have steel sprockets but if it started going out the effet would be the same. Good luck

Chris

03-09-2007, 01:32 PM	#4
Vaj Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Calgary, AB Posts: 397 Profile Gallery Classifieds My Jeeps	Dude, I guarantee you that what happened is that all those little metal flakes that are in the coolant stop leak you put in, have now gone through the hole in your head gasket and into the tops of your cylinders. Then all those little flakes destroyed the inside of your cylinders and rings. If you pull your head expect to see alot of damage in the upper cylinders. That crap should have a warning label on it saying "Not for leaking heads or head gaskets!!" ****ty luck.