[TMCXJ]

...or, "Confessions of a Torque Hypocrite" -- sort of.

Awhile back I told about how at the end of June of this year, my wife had brought my 1996 to Midas to have them check the exhaust and how as a result we got the infamous Midas "bad-touch."

Anyways, within days the Jeep developed a very bad steering shimmy when the brakes were applied. The shimmy was worse when the brakes were applied hard than when situations allowed for normal braking. In addition, the Jeep went from driving and handling quite smoothly under all conditions to driving wobbly all the time with dozens of "near-death wobble" episodes to actually going into a couple of severe death wobble episodes that required me to bring the car to the shoulder of the highway in order to reduce speed to a point where the wobble stopped and I was able to regain control.

Something was always nagging at me in the back of my mind but I could never quite "get it." Pieces of the puzzle started fitting together, and with the recent threads about torqueing lug nuts, warping rotors, death wobble, and what would seem like 99% of the people ignoring proper torque in general and lug nuts perhaps in particular, I got me to thinkin'... a very dangerous thing.

SOOooo... yesterday morning, I asked my wife if Midas BadTouch had perchance removed the wheels while they had it on the lift. She said "yes," and I went and got their two-bit "Courtesy Check" list, but it didn't really tell me whether or not they had removed them all. The sheet did say that they inspected the brakes, so I have presumed that to mean that they did. And it was 4 months ago, my wife said, she thought they took all 4 off but she couldn't really recall.

Yesterday afternoon my daughter called from college to say that her car was leaking brake fluid from the rear wheels. So, after I got home, my wife and I drove out there with the intention of my wife driving the Jeep back here and me driving the car so that I could do whatever needed to be done... thank God, when we got there, it was nothing more than normal condensation draining from the mufflers (dual mufflers) and carrying carbon with it, so that after the water dried on the pavement it left the black behind and she thought it was oil, and being right there at the rear axle, she presumed it must be brake fluid (hey, I musta done something right raising her! LOL!!!). Oh well, good call that she even noticed it and has the good sense to do something about it, even if only to call Dad. I asked her how it had been driving, she replied, "Good, except it shakes pretty bad whenever I put the brakes on ever since I took it to be inspected... at Midas..."

Well, the little light bulb came on over my head. There in the dorm parking lot I jacked up one wheel after another, loosened the lugnuts (they ALL felt like they'd been torqued to 200 ft.lbs.!!!) and then retorqued them all to specs. I drove it around, and even on the very steep hills around campus the brakes behaved perfectly. I thought they only needed to remove one front and one rear wheel for NY inspections? Oh well, maybe they did, but NOW, that car drives as smooth as it did before, and there was only a hint of shimmy once and that only when stopping hard downhill.

The entire drive back home, my mind was occupied with thoughts of brake rotors ("overtightening can warp rotors, but is that warp only because of the overtightening, or can the rotors recover after properly torqueing?"), steering instability, and - hmmmm.... maybe even the possibility that over-torqueing could cause certain types of death wobble? Like, MINE, in particular????? And the whole way home, the Jeep had shimmy, wandering in the lane, and one near-death wobble episode that scared my wife pretty bad (even though she was a passenger - it was not pleasant).

Coincidentally, yesterday I was shopping around for a new set of lug nuts since mine were that foolish tin-plate acorn style and were not all that great to begin with. The last time I had any reason to mess with the lugnuts, they were ALL still fine. WELL -- last night, as soon as I got home (kind of late), I parked the Jeep in the garage and decided to check out my theory. HAH!!! Guess what? Those once "not too terrible" lug nuts? Well, they were trashed. Only 3 out of 20 lug nuts were still decent enough to be able to get my 3/4" deep socket onto. The rest were completely trashed. Most had the tin skins twisted, several had the acorn top ripped off. Did I say 3 out of 20??? oops, my bad -- there were only 19!!! One lug nut wasn't even put back on!!! And ALL of them - ALL - were torqued on so tight that I had to put a pipe on the cheater bar to loosen them. The 16 that I couldn't get the socket over, I had to take a screwdriver and hammer and separate the skins from the nuts, then use needlenose pliers to tear the skins free, and then pound an 18mm deep socket on to remove them. I am not exaggerating at all when I say that it took a 2 foot pipe on a 30 inch cheater to break free each lug nut. It was so bad, I checked the threads on all. In every case, there were very fine metal shavings - more like dust, actually - in the wheel sockets (I have alloy wheels, the shavings were definitely from the lug threads though), but the threads seemed to be fine so that was some consolation. I used the new lug nuts (from Wal-Mart, Rally Part No. 90111W, 1/2 X 20 open end lug nuts, $2.54 per 4-pack -- pretty good deal as far as I was able to find!), snugged by hand, then torqued to 40 in star pattern, then to 75 in same pattern, then to 85, all wheels the same treatment.

By the time I had finished (VERY late - that's why I'm typing now, I had the good sense to call in and let them know I'd be taking a floating vacation day ), I was too tired to take it for a drive, so I left things the way they were. This morning, however.... I took it through its traces. The result? NO more shimmy, NO more feelings of warped (front) rotors, NO more "wandering," and, most important to me, NO MORE DEATH WOBBLE. There is this one bump, about 10 inches wide in cross section and about 2.5 inches tall that extends across the entire width of the highway - on a very sharp curve, no less - that I always have to steer into so that I hit the bump going relatively straight ahead or else I WILL go into death wobble to some degree. Well, today I hit that thing from both sides, driving hard. I kept doing this for 5 times in each direction, at 55 mph. Normally, this action would cause the Jeep to, as stated before, at least shimmy very hard after impact and on two occasions to almost loose control of the Jeep (no need to tell any of you that have experienced Death Wobble what that feels - AND SOUNDS - like), but today? Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Granted, it's only been one day. But the difference in driving and handling is significantly noticeable. I'll retorque them all later today just because that's the way it's supposed to be done, and I don't intend to remain a hypocrite about torque. It never even occurred to me to check things after the Jeep came back from MidAss... but, I should have known better.

I'm not sure that this will help anyone else or not, but I know enough to know that I'm not the only one that's got this as a problem. HTH.

- Tim

P.S. - It would seem from my results that the issue of "warped rotor" MAY be reversible by redoing the nuts at proper torque. Also, those Rally lug nuts have a 1-year guarantee, FWIW.

[Miami_XJ]

Wow, thanks for the time to write that. I usually just tighten lugnuts to whatever strength I can muster that day but torque specifications were/are designed for a reason I figure. Good thing to check and shouldn't take too long either!

[TMCXJ]

LOL!!! Thanks, and believe it or not it might just take LESS time than it took to WRITE that!!! LOL!

[TMCXJ]

Another thing... I can't shake the thought of what would have happened if I had to change a flat on the road, with those old lug nuts in the condition they they were? What about my wife? Or daughter? Something maybe we all ought to think about. I NEVER would have been able to remove those nuts with a regular 4-way, not to mention that almost-useless lug nut wrench that came with the Jeep. So, I highly recommend a good once-over for all of us. And when you DO torque them to spec, I can almost guarantee (to those of you that never did it right before) that you'll have an awfully sick feeling about how they are DEFINITELY NOT TIGHT ENOUGH. Just don't give in to the temptation to gorilla torque them again... consider it "therapy."

[EricsXJ]

Very good post. I hadn't considered that lug nut torque could play a part in vibrations like that. Thanks.

[XJK]

X2, interesting read. i will definatly take that into consideration

-Kyle

[TMCXJ]

Eric and Kyle, the thanks goes to you guys and others like you on this forum. You've contributed an enormous amount, not just in the things you've written about but also in that you get other ideas going and then it's not so hard to begin making connections between ideas, and that's literally how this came to me -- one thought leading to another, remembering someone else's problems, wondering if this or that might be at work, you know how it goes. I HOPE this fix is permanent for my XJ's problem, but if not, I'll most certainly report on any failings of it as a possible "cure."

[XJK]

well thank you sir, it is nice to know that some of the things that i do are appreciated. but please for the sake of eric, dont put me on the same level as him it almost downgrades his status in a way as i dont know 1/8 of the stuff that he does about XJ's (or jeeps for that matter) all i do is post a lot. doesnt mean i know anything.

again, thanks for the little article that you composed. it was a good read and i will take that into consideration next time i expierence DW.

-Kyle

[XJLI]

Good catch on the lugs.
I've experienced the opposite of this with lugs not tightened at all (Its called wheel falls off wobble) and its not fun either.

[99cherokee]

wow! great post I have never thought about that.
Thanks for taking the time, I am going to check mine.

[se-real]

WOW! Thanks for opening my eyes! I had a wobble (wouldnt call it a death wobble) but its a pretty mean one none the less! Anywho, I went over all my lug nuts and torqued them to specs, and guess what?!?!?! WObble free! Man, its crazy how the little simple things can sometimes seem like such a headache! Great write up Tim! It helped me a considerable amount!

[TMCXJ]

Ever get chased down the street by an elephant?

Ever been mauled by a tiger?

Ever been squashed by a meteor?

...ever been bit by a mosquito?

(it's the little things that get ya! LOL!!!)

Man, am I glad to hear that helped. It's nice to be able to finally contribute something useful.

[balloo93]

Glad to hear you got that worked out.

Call Midas or better yet, call the general manager and make damn sure they use a torque wrench. Every tire shop in town here uses the impact gun on around 70 and then goes behind it with a torque wrench to tighten them to spec. They should be doingthe same.

If they give you lip, contact the better business burea and file a complaint with those specifics in it. The BBB might not hold a lot of weight, but if you ever have to go after them you have filed documentation against them.

[sprintagogo]

Originally Posted by ChuckeryOffroad

And when you DO torque them to spec, I can almost guarantee (to those of you that never did it right before) that you'll have an awfully sick feeling about how they are DEFINITELY NOT TIGHT ENOUGH. Just don't give in to the temptation to gorilla torque them again... consider it "therapy."

X2 on the doubting your nuts are tight. I started torquing to spec about 4-5 years ago and I still never feel happy about it. The proof is in the pudding though and I drive a commercial van about 40,000 miles a year and haven't lost a wheel yet so it must be right.

[TMCXJ]

balloo, this issue with the local Midas is complicated... my wife went there to help me out when I had no time, they took an almost new (only 2 months old!!!) muffler and tail pipe off, put new ones on (the old ones were 2.5", they put 2.25" on and my power & mpg's both went downhill instantly), "welded" a rusted-off exhaust pipe hanger onto a very rusted exhaust pipe (charged $30 for that, and the "weld" - actually more like a glob of molten metal deposited somewhere on the pipe - didn't survive the 9-mile trip home!!!), and the muffler isn't sitting level, it's twisted about 30 degrees, and the tailpipe is turned 90 degrees (it's pointing to the passenger's side instead of pointing down!!!), and the cheap tailpipe hanger they used was tack welded TO THE GAS TANK SKID PLATE... that weld did not survive the trip home, either. I haven't had much in the way of time to "fix" the mess they made. Oh yeah, and they charged $300+ for the crappy "work" they did. I've been back and forth with them about it; one time they say it's because the exhaust pipe and the cat "aren't to spec for that year Cherokee" (like they'd KNOW?!?!?!), next time they claim that "It would never have left this shop looking like that!" - yeah, my 105-pound powerhouse of a wife stopped on the way home and "re-adjusted" their work, right? Anyways.... I could have gotten parts for the entire exhaust for less than what they charged, and it would have been better, and it would have been right. I've made up my mind that I will just never go there again, and that I will sound the alarm to everyone I know. I gave up expecting satisfaction from them. The BBB thing I just might do, but honestly they don't seem to have any impact on people's decisions.

As for the one my daughter took hers to for inspection -- about 35 miles away... but they also torqued the lug nuts something fierce.

Well, after 40 miles or so (yeah I know, it's supposed to be anywhere from 25 to 50 or whatever, depending on what ya read), I re-torqued the lug nuts, nothing had changed with the torque; as of now, I've got about 75 miles on them since I put on the new lug nuts and torqued them right, and even my wife asked if I had the car worked on. It's that noticeable. No shimmy, no shakes, no wandering, no flubber-wheel when braking, it sounds MUCH quieter, all good stuff. I know it sounds weird, but give it a shot. It may save your sanity instead of throwing time and money chasing death wobble. And besides that, IT'S FREE!!! I DO NOT think that this will fix all aspects of all causes of death wobble; certainly some lifts and alignment problems as well as worn bushings, etc. come into play and every Jeep is different, but the only "lift" that I have, per se, is the Up Country suspension package that it had when it left the factory, and THAT is still holding over an inch above stock after all the Jeep has been put through... Anyways, this has worked and worked beautifully for mine, thank God! LOL! Hopefully it wil help a good many out there. If nothing else, it's proof of why the torque specs WORK...

- Tim