My goal is to get 25+ mpg from my 99 XJ with 30 x 9.5 R15 ATs - Page 36 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 08-26-2013, 09:58 AM   #526
ECL
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Guys - this is literally "playing with fire". You can get 200F from the coolant but to go 230-260F, where would the heat source come from? Exhaust heat?
Man, I'm nervous just thinking about this. Not to "nanny" but please be very careful - a leak could be a disaster.

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Unread 08-26-2013, 10:30 AM   #527
Newtons3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECL View Post
Guys - this is literally "playing with fire". You can get 200F from the coolant but to go 230-260F, where would the heat source come from? Exhaust heat?
Man, I'm nervous just thinking about this. Not to "nanny" but please be very careful - a leak could be a disaster.
I intend to get it from the coolant. Typically 205ish these days. At 59 psi there should be no problem in the lines or rail. You are correct in your assertion that a leak would be dangerous. How is that different from anytime else? Have you ever checked the running temp of your intake or considered that the injectors are less than 6 inches from the exhaust manifold? Any leak, any time, for any of us could potentially be problematic. For that matter, what is the temp of your fuel now? My floorboard (Wrangler) is 159 degrees after only 12 miles and the fuel line runs right there. We may, though I dont know, be close to my target temp now. I know after a heat soak, on start up, it is easy to see those fuel temps.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 12:17 PM   #528
Charley3
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This thread never gets boring.

To any new comers to thread:

We started with practical, proven, easy, inexpensive mods.

Then moved on to practical, proven, moderately expensive mods.

Then moved on to practical, proven, expensive mods.

At this point we've moved on to theoretical stuff that might help, but no guarantees, and not so easy to do. But interesting and might help.

For your safety, I suggest no one else try heating gasoline until AFTER Newtons has perfected this in a safe manner and proven that it actually helps gas mileage. I can see this might be very helpful in cold climates. I'm skeptical if it could help in a hot climate (where gas already warm). We'll see.

Stay tuned as Newtons does interesting research, testing, implememtation, and more testing of heating gasoline to (hopefully) improve combustion efficiency. He is a professional mechanic and race car driver. So I have full confidence in his skills, judgement, and safety standards.

After he perfects this, if it helps gas mileage, I will copy him.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 12:41 PM   #529
tbart16
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great thread I have been following for weeks it keeps getting better and better.

i wanted to add that I just realized lately that the electric fans on my 2000 subaru are not working and may have not been for months I was stuck in traffic and the A/C was on 90 degrees outside all of a sudden my temps started rising got home did a little investigating and realized no fans I di d notice my gas mileage increase over the past 3 monhts it jumped almost 2-3 mpg. Now that summer is winding down I am going to run all winter long and see how good it gets.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 01:37 PM   #530
Newtons3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
This thread never gets boring.

To any new comers, we started with practical, proven, easy, inexpensive mods.

Then moved on to practical, proven, more expensive mods.

At this point we've moved on to theoretical stuff that might help, but no guarantees, and not so easy to do. But interesting and might help.

IMO
One thing we may want to revisit is tires. As Ive said before, tire selection is a factor to economy, but there are several elements to consider. I would love to see some type of comparison poll/chart put together recording MPG considering the following- tire/wheel size, tire make/model, overall gear ratio (including OD), etc. I have a feeling the effects of tire sizes/weights/tread patterns would be predictable and the gearing info would be enlightening.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 03:08 PM   #531
Charley3
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Tires with silica added to tread rubber have lower rolling resistance than same tread pattern without silica.

Silica increases wet pavement traction, packed snow and ice traction, and tire life.

Cooper AT3, Hercules AT2, and I've heard some of the Goodyear tires have silica in tread rubber.

It's being used in some high-end latest generation tires.

It's one of the features I look for in a tire.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 04:43 PM   #532
Newtons3
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Mickey Thompson, Firestone, and Bridgestone all offer tires with high silica content. While I agree that it should offer longer wear characteristics and possibly a little lower rolling resistance, I don't see any proof that adding silica to an already established tire design gains snow/ice traction; that's counter-intuitive. I would also argue that silica, when added to an existing, known tire design, has the distinct result of decreasing wet weather traction (I'm on my third set of those with the same results). Another problem I have is that there is no baseline that I've seen to measure silica content. I mean, what's high, low, more, or less? There are some claims about what this wonderful "new" additive to tires does for us, but really, what is proven? I can say, my Firestones with silica went exactly the same number of miles as they did before. My M/T's are doing the same. BTW- No difference in MPG either. That may have something to do with the platform as a Wrangler is not the perfect test platform for economy. I will still fall back to tread design, durometer, tread depth, ply construction, etc. to make the decision on a tire. Until there is an empirical way to measure the silica content or at least the results, I won't make any decisions based on it especially if they want me to pay extra for the privilege.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:00 PM   #533
Newtons3
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This is the future. Current predictions are for widespread availability in about 10 years, but I just heard from a source I consider extremely reliable that because of rising interest and contracts (as you may see from the picture), we may see them available to us in around five years at @ $275 ea.

http://michelinmedia.com/news/michel...re-innovation/

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1377557988
m-humvee1.jpg

mmadlo7p1xuxz21p-a1a6tl72ejkfbmt4t8yenimkbvaiqdb_rd1h6kmubwtcebj.jpg

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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:06 PM   #534
Newtons3
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Any thoughts on this? This is something I've been waiting for. Could work for some of what I've proposed.

http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto...c-ht-fuel-inj/
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:09 PM   #535
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECL View Post
Guys - this is literally "playing with fire". You can get 200F from the coolant but to go 230-260F, where would the heat source come from? Exhaust heat?
Man, I'm nervous just thinking about this. Not to "nanny" but please be very careful - a leak could be a disaster.
Re heating gasoline...

Newtons is a professional mechanic and race car driver. He'll find a safe way to do it. I have full confidence in his abilites and his judgement.

I would never attempt this, except by following Newtons instructions AFTER he's implemented and perfected it. I suggest others do same.

That is of course, if it helps gas mileage. We won't know of it helps gas mileage until after Newtons implements and tests it.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:19 PM   #536
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtons3 View Post
Mickey Thompson, Firestone, and Bridgestone all offer tires with high silica content. While I agree that it should offer longer wear characteristics and possibly a little lower rolling resistance, I don't see any proof that adding silica to an already established tire design gains snow/ice traction; that's counter-intuitive. I would also argue that silica, when added to an existing, known tire design, has the distinct result of decreasing wet weather traction (I'm on my third set of those with the same results). Another problem I have is that there is no baseline that I've seen to measure silica content. I mean, what's high, low, more, or less? There are some claims about what this wonderful "new" additive to tires does for us, but really, what is proven? I can say, my Firestones with silica went exactly the same number of miles as they did before. My M/T's are doing the same. BTW- No difference in MPG either. That may have something to do with the platform as a Wrangler is not the perfect test platform for economy. I will still fall back to tread design, durometer, tread depth, ply construction, etc. to make the decision on a tire. Until there is an empirical way to measure the silica content or at least the results, I won't make any decisions based on it especially if they want me to pay extra for the privilege.
How dare you disagree with me!

Ha ha. Just kidding.

===

Cooper AT3 have superior wet traction and tire life. Cooper claims it's the silica.

Cooper is not charging extra for silica. The AT3 is a mid priced AT with top performance.

===

Having said all that, I can't argue with some of what you said because I don't know for sure on some of the issues you mention.

All I can say for sure is I'm impressed with the Cooper AT3, and Cooper claims the silica is an important part of the sauce, and Cooper lists the benefits I mentioned.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:20 PM   #537
Newtons3
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Somebody has to try something different. We can't sit around waiting for someone else to do it.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:27 PM   #538
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtons3 View Post
Somebody has to try something different. We can't sit around waiting for someone else to do it.
Oh contrare mo frair.

I am literally sitting around waiting for you to do it. (I assume you were talking about heating gasoline)

You're the most qualified person I know to figure it out and do it safely. If it helps gas mileage, then I'll copy you.

You're the pioneer on the heating gasoline topic. I'm content to be an interested, potential follower on that topic.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:29 PM   #539
Newtons3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
How dare you disagree with me! Ha ha. Just kidding.

===

Cooper AT3 have superior wet traction and tire life. Cooper claims it's the silica.

Cooper is not charging extra for silica. The AT3 is a mid priced AT with top performance.

===

Having said all that, I can't argue with some of what you said because I don't know for sure on some of the issues you mention.

All I can say for sure is I'm impressed with the Cooper AT3, and Cooper claims the silica is an important part of the sauce, and Cooper lists the benefits I mentioned.
I do like Cooper and their sister companies M/T and Dick Cepek. The AT3 is an awesome tire like the Firestone Destination A/T, just not aggressive enough for me on the Wrangler. I may try a set on the next Cherokee. The very fact that they don't charge extra or inflate their prices for it makes me doubt its effectiveness.

One thing to look out for is that I just heard this week that Cooper tires was sold to an Indian company (Apollo Tyres) and has acquired $2.5B in debt. Looking at the reports on the internet, though, it looks like the sale was for $2.5B. We'll see. I'll be watching to see how the merger affects design and quality.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:31 PM   #540
Newtons3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Oh contrare mo frair.

I am literally sitting around waiting for you to do it.
If suicidal deer (2) and old ladies in Cadillac Sedan DeVille's would stop targeting my Cherokees, I might could get something done.
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