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Unread 08-25-2013, 08:06 PM   #1
JeepJammer
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Engine turns / won't start / after AC clutch repair and radiator flush

Oh boy, I think I might have killed my Jeep. I'm not a mechanic, but am mechanically inclined. I'm enough to be dangerous, but not enough to get myself out of this pickle.

Troubles started once I started experimenting with my AC this summer. Got it working enough to burn out the AC clutch. Pulley was still turning but making various degrees of howling noises. In diagnosing and repairing this, I started suspecting overheating issues, because everything under the hood seemed so darned hot.

Once I got the AC clutch repaired, I decided to flush my radiator fluid because it seemed awfully brown. I flushed it several times, put new fluid in, tidied everything up from both repairs.

Found the battery to be dead, so charged it for about 20 minutes and was able to start it just fine. After about 10 minutes of idling I noticed the electric fan still hadn't come on, but temperature seemed stable at about 210.

I then drove it about 10 miles, and let it idle at a gas station when I went in. After coming coming out, the "check gauges" light was on and there was a noise alarm. The temp was up to about 240.

The temp quickly went back down to about 210/220 as a I drove home. Got home, opened the hood, and realized the electric fan still wasn't running,

I turned off and decided to check all fuses under the glove box and under the hood. I also pulled off, visually inspected, and re-inserted all the relays. One 15A fuse was burnt under the hood so I replaced it.

Then tried starting it to see if maybe the fan would come on, but that's when I found it would no longer start. Battery seems great. Engine seems to turn over (everything on the serpentine belt was turning) But it's definitely not firing anywhere. Just turning over.

Any clues what I did wrong and what I should check first?

Uh let's see. The damage could be from overheating. From getting quite a few things wet with the radiator flush. Electrical from pulling/reinserting all the relays. I gotta learn to just do one thing at a time.

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Unread 08-25-2013, 08:16 PM   #2
CJ7-Tim
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What 15 amp fuse was bad, and why ?

The no-start may or may not be connected to any recent work.
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Unread 08-25-2013, 09:08 PM   #3
JeepJammer
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Unfortunately, I'm not completely sure which one it was now. I couldn't find any info for it on the diagram, the manual, or in Haynes.

I know it was one of the three I circled in the attached image. I'm 50% sure it was the green circled one. In another this thread, it seems like that one is a fuel pump fuse, which I suppose would make some sense...
jeep-fuses.jpg

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Unread 08-26-2013, 10:37 AM   #4
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I tested my Crankshaft Position Sensor according to this post on NAXJA, and found that I'm getting current through all three of the leads (wasn't complete sure which were B and C, so tested all variations).

Does that mean it's bad for sure? Or, are there any other tests I should do on the Jeep, before committing another afternoon and $90 on replacing the CPS?

I'd be thrilled to get my Jeep back for one afternoon/$90, but I'm hesitant to feel very optimistic that this will be the end my issues...

The darn thing looks hard to get to. I think I'll try the "under the dash" method explained in
.

Thinking about renting a code reader from a car parts store to see what else might be going on...
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Unread 08-26-2013, 11:03 AM   #5
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Failed to mention that Vapor Canister Purge Valve seems to be "pulsing" every few seconds with a "dripping" like noise, when the key is on, before trying to start it. This may be normal for all I know, but just mentioning it for full disclosure.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 11:25 AM   #6
CJ7-Tim
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You should be testing the CPS for Ohms. The CPS wires with the ignition key at the normal RUN position should have 5 volts on two of the wires, and the third is ground. If you have voltage on all three wires, or more than 5 volts, there is a problem.

A=1
B=2
C=3

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Progressive Liberalism: Bringing you new Healthcare ideas so wonderful, they have to include mandatory participation ......

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Unread 08-26-2013, 01:12 PM   #7
JeepJammer
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Thanks Tim. I've enjoyed reading your posts for quite a while.

I possibly wasn't clear, but I did test Ohms (with the car off, and just dealing with the disconnected sensor). Contacts 2 and 3 only have about 2 Ohms resistance between them. When I said I was getting current through all the contact pairs, I meant that the ohmmeter was reading something less than infinity for each pair, therefore allowing some current to flow through.

I couldn't get through the dash/floorboard like the video showed (for a Grand Cherokee I think), so I'll have to try it the "standard" way with plenty of socket extensions, a universal joint and maybe some cursing I guess.

Still debating whether to rent a code reader to determine what else may be wrong before I plunge into the CPS.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 05:46 PM   #8
CJ7-Tim
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If the Check Engine Light is on, you need to know what trouble codes are stored before you can begin repairs. Are the decimals in the right place when reading the Ohms ? You should have less than 2000 Ohms between B and C and nothing A to B and A to C.
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Between 2009 when Obama took office, and 2013, median annual household incomes have fallen by more than $2,100.

Progressive Liberalism: Bringing you new Healthcare ideas so wonderful, they have to include mandatory participation ......

Originally Posted by Ronald W. Reagan: Government is not the solution to our problems; Government is the problem.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 07:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ7-Tim View Post
You should be testing the CPS for Ohms. The CPS wires with the ignition key at the normal RUN position should have 5 volts on two of the wires, and the third is ground. If you have voltage on all three wires, or more than 5 volts, there is a problem.

A=1
B=2
C=3

I checked my ohms and I am getting infinite ohm on both 1-2 and 2-3. Is this ok or does it mean a bad sensor
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Unread 08-29-2013, 04:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ7-Tim View Post
Are the decimals in the right place when reading the Ohms ? You should have less than 2000 Ohms between B and C and nothing A to B and A to C.
No, my decimals were NOT in the right place. I have 2000 Ohms between B and C. Possibly a bit more, because my Ohmmeter seems to be reading a little bit low when I tested it against some know resistors.

Even more important, with some thin multi-strand wire, I was able to take some measurements with the CPS in action, and found:
1) I am getting 5 volts between the supply and the ground. Until it dies off after about 6 seconds of cranking.
2) between the ground and the signal, it bounces around 0.5 DC volts +/- 0.5V.

I know this method isn't as accurate as using an oscilloscope, but I'm pretty certain it should be averaging out to be something higher than 0.5 DCV, right?
-----------------
Also I was able to borrow a professional grade scanner, but it didn't find anything because I had unwittingly erased them when I disconnected my battery the day before.
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Unread 08-30-2013, 11:39 AM   #11
CJ7-Tim
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I am not an Electronics whiz, I just know enough to fix Jeeps. My brand new spare, genuine Jeep CPS, checks a bit less than 2000 ohms.

If the Check Engine Light is ON or has been ON recently, start your diagnostics by downloading the trouble codes.
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Between 2009 when Obama took office, and 2013, median annual household incomes have fallen by more than $2,100.

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Originally Posted by Ronald W. Reagan: Government is not the solution to our problems; Government is the problem.
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Unread 08-30-2013, 07:22 PM   #12
JeepJammer
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I changed the CPS with one I got at the junkyard. Also No change. Then replaced it with an aftermarket one from Advanced Auto, and also replaced the radiator fan with one I got from the junkyard. Still no start, but the battery was nearly dead so jumped it for a while.

Still no start, but now when I leave the key on for 20 seconds or so, it says "no bus" on the odometer.

I don't know if this is a new symptom, or if it's a continuation of the old. I still get the "no bus" message even after unplugging the new CPS and fan, ruling them out as the culprits (I think).

Definitely have more research to do now. Not sure what to try next....
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Unread 08-31-2013, 09:00 AM   #13
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I tried unhooking the camshaft sensor, but still "no bus". I'm going to try checking all the harness connectors related to the ECM/PCM and the instrument panel.

I saw a 99 XJ Classic at the junkyard that is nearly like mine. Mine is the "Sport". In the offchance miracle it's computer still works, are these "swappable" between Sport/Classic??? Or even Sport to Sport? I should have taken a picture of the "Classic"'s VIN, but I think the first 11 digits were even the same. i.e. only the last 6 digits of the serial number were different.

For what it's worth, the first 11 digits of my VIN are: 1J4FF68S0XL.

If this is possible, I may just try this for $33.
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Unread 09-04-2013, 07:54 AM   #14
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Ok, I'm still stuck.

I verified the new crankshaft position sensor is working properly by measuring the voltage of the signal wire to ground while hand cranking the driveshaft, and confirmed I am getting the proper 5 volt signals as I crank.

Can anyone advise me if the camshaft position sensor should also send signals as I hand crank? (or otherwise how to test the camshaft position sensor)

Also, I've noticed my fuel pump does not turn on even for a little bit when I turn on the key, and I have at most a trickle of pressure at the fuel rail. I can't hear the pump at least, when I have have my head under the gas tank, and someone turns the key.

Is it normal for the fuel pump to not turn at all when there are problems with the ignition circuit, or should I be investigating that first?
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Unread 09-04-2013, 11:16 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepJammer View Post
Ok, I'm still stuck.

I verified the new crankshaft position sensor is working properly by measuring the voltage of the signal wire to ground while hand cranking the driveshaft, and confirmed I am getting the proper 5 volt signals as I crank.

Can anyone advise me if the camshaft position sensor should also send signals as I hand crank? (or otherwise how to test the camshaft position sensor)

Also, I've noticed my fuel pump does not turn on even for a little bit when I turn on the key, and I have at most a trickle of pressure at the fuel rail. I can't hear the pump at least, when I have have my head under the gas tank, and someone turns the key.

Is it normal for the fuel pump to not turn at all when there are problems with the ignition circuit, or should I be investigating that first?
I had some intermittent starting problems with rough idle after starting. After swapping the fuel pump and ASD relay problems disappeared ... The relays sometimes work intermittently, depending on their condition and which relay circuit their connected to.

The following actions occur when the starter motor is engaged:

1. The auto shutdown and fuel pump relays are energized. If the PCM does not receive the camshaft and crankshaft signal within approximately one second, these relays are deenergized.

If there is a problem with a 12 volt feed circuit and/or one of the relays one or both of the relays may not be energized.

You want to first test related fuses, relays, feed circuits and grounds.

____
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