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Unread 12-03-2010, 09:39 AM   #16
onespeedpaul
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some thoughts...

just throwing my $.02 into the thread...

i too have long thought diesel powered XJ would be great!

i read a blog a long time ago about a VW jetta mid-80's engine going into a ZJ, seemed mostly straightforward and not terribly different than the OP's idea.

some things i would consider:

first, would you be able to pass any inspection for your state? would i ever move to a state that has inspection that would potentially not allow it? i live in TX, and diesels here only require a basic safety inspection, and have a different tax rate for registration of the vehicle (my wife's car is a TDI passat, and i had a ram CTD before my XJ) so what would be the considerations? could i somehow get the registration changed? obviously 'at the inspection station' the inspector would say 'yeah it's a diesel now' and probably give me a sticker, but what about when i went to get tags/registration? that office is pretty tough on whether or not your inspection papers are legit. anyways, just some thoughts on that matter.

secondly, motor choice! is the 300D engine mentioned above going to deliver 'real-world' performance similar to what it does in it's original chassis? one on hand i would say yes, and another no. say if you do a minimal JY/BB (ZJ V8 coils and BP rear for about 2" lift) and the oil pan adequately clears i would argue you'd get close to the same MPG/perf numbers seen in the original car, however i'd argue it would 'feel' grossly underpowered compared to the 4.0L. even more so for going with +3" lift/+30" tires (even considering appropriate re-gear) it would likely feel wayy underpowered.

what about that isuzu NPR diesel commonly found in box vans? i don't know enough about them to say much. if the engine/associated hardware has a decent power/weight ratio and appropriate physical dimensions it could be a good choice.

and onto the 4BT: it's a 6BT less two cylinders, which unfortunately means even though it's slightly smaller end to end, it still weighs twice as much as the 4.0L removed, not to mention the top to bottom size difference...it's HUGE and HEAVY.

i would recommend reading the various links and articles found here: Novak Conversions - General Engine Conversion Options

weights and physical dimensions considered, the novak articles make a sound argument in favor of the LS1 GM V8 against pretty much anything else for mileage/efficiency

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Unread 12-03-2010, 03:09 PM   #17
jgrimm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millermagic View Post
This is why I hate living in NY.

I'd love to have a mechanical injection diesel 5 speed cherokee ... or any type of truck/suv. Thanks to the green people, can't do it
Thats odd. Here in NC, you just have to pass safety inspection on vehicles older than 1996 (1995 and below)

OBD-II started in 1996.

What kind of tests must your vehicle pass in NY?
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1992 YJ, 4.0 HO, 5-Speed (AX-15), 2.5" lift, 31" tires, Sony sound system, w/ pioneer sound-bar, copper-red paint, Loved it. Miss it. Sold.|1999 XJ. The "Cheep". 4.5" RC lift. 33" BFG MT. Train Horns. 2wd to 4x4 build. DD. Sold.|2003 WJ. 30" Michelin AT's. Curt roof rack. Train Horns. Stock. Soon to be lifted. DD.
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Unread 12-03-2010, 03:49 PM   #18
jgrimm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onespeedpaul View Post
just throwing my $.02 into the thread...

i too have long thought diesel powered XJ would be great!

i read a blog a long time ago about a VW jetta mid-80's engine going into a ZJ, seemed mostly straightforward and not terribly different than the OP's idea.

some things i would consider:

first, would you be able to pass any inspection for your state? would i ever move to a state that has inspection that would potentially not allow it? i live in TX, and diesels here only require a basic safety inspection, and have a different tax rate for registration of the vehicle (my wife's car is a TDI passat, and i had a ram CTD before my XJ) so what would be the considerations? could i somehow get the registration changed? obviously 'at the inspection station' the inspector would say 'yeah it's a diesel now' and probably give me a sticker, but what about when i went to get tags/registration? that office is pretty tough on whether or not your inspection papers are legit. anyways, just some thoughts on that matter.

secondly, motor choice! is the 300D engine mentioned above going to deliver 'real-world' performance similar to what it does in it's original chassis? one on hand i would say yes, and another no. say if you do a minimal JY/BB (ZJ V8 coils and BP rear for about 2" lift) and the oil pan adequately clears i would argue you'd get close to the same MPG/perf numbers seen in the original car, however i'd argue it would 'feel' grossly underpowered compared to the 4.0L. even more so for going with +3" lift/+30" tires (even considering appropriate re-gear) it would likely feel wayy underpowered.

what about that isuzu NPR diesel commonly found in box vans? i don't know enough about them to say much. if the engine/associated hardware has a decent power/weight ratio and appropriate physical dimensions it could be a good choice.

and onto the 4BT: it's a 6BT less two cylinders, which unfortunately means even though it's slightly smaller end to end, it still weighs twice as much as the 4.0L removed, not to mention the top to bottom size difference...it's HUGE and HEAVY.

i would recommend reading the various links and articles found here: Novak Conversions - General Engine Conversion Options

weights and physical dimensions considered, the novak articles make a sound argument in favor of the LS1 GM V8 against pretty much anything else for mileage/efficiency

Oh yes. Totally agreed; the GM LS(x) series engines are amazing. Probably one of the best swaps one could perform on several vehicle types (240sx/Drifting, jeep, off-road, sand-rails, etc.etc) BUT, the main issue with those engines are the price tag. Not very affordable, unless you happen across one on craigslist or something.

Another argument against the LS(x) V8; with the Mercedes-Benz diesel, I can run BioDiesel, which anyone can effectively produce significantly cheaper than the regular petrol that the GM LS(x) v8 would use. One could also run WVO with an appropriate kit installed; WVO or waste-vegetable-oil is what restaurants just throw away, or pay someone to dispose of. They'd be more than happy to let you get it off their hands. BioDiesel, if properly produced, is much better for your engine and will actually increase its longevity and help it run better. Diesel fuel sold here in the USA is of poor quality when compared to European diesel fuel and BioDiesel.

Passing emissions is no big deal here in NC; all you must pass is a safety inspection for vehicles made 1995 or older. If the vehicle requires an emissions inspection in stock form in your given state then it may require additional work and may not be a good candidate for a diesel swap.

I really don't see any need to change the title or registration. Seems like an unneeded hassle. Here in NC, people regularly swap diesel engines into Suzuki Samurais without any difficulty; they do not alter the title or registration at all. It would be the same process with the jeep. As long as it doesn't require an emissions check (sniffer or where they hook into your OBD port/on-board computer) you will not have any issues passing. As for the DMV in TX, if you do not mention that it runs on diesel, they’ll probably never know the difference (unless they are extremely anal and search the vehicle top to bottom). Here in NC, DMV officials/office personnel who handle the tag, title, and registration processing do not come in contact with the vehicle; the only people who come into contact with your vehicle are those who work at the inspection station/service station at which you get your vehicle inspected.

For early wranglers (4.2L powered) the OM617 is an upgrade in power and torque (but you must swap the Peugeot trans for an AX-15).

For any 4cyl powered Jeep, it is well superior to the stock 2.5.

For any 4.0 Powered Jeep the OM617 provides performance much like the original factory equipped 4.0 I-6. The Diesels horsepower output is a bit less (125hp) but the torque output is about the same (188ft/lb). Also, the Diesels torque curve is much better suited to trails; its peak torque comes in at low RPM, making it desirable for rock crawling and trail applications. Also, one can crank up the performance of the diesel by removing the rack limiter. If you add an intercooler, you will see a significant gain there as well. People have already breached the 300HP mark with these engines. Most only use a performance injector pump and elements paired with a few other external upgrades (no tearing into the engine is necessary) Toss on a larger turbo and you will also see a decent increase in output numbers.

People that have completed this swap report fuel consumption digits from the high teens to the low to mid 20's. Pair the fuel consumption to the low cost of BioDiesel and there is a clear and definite savings in fuel cost.

Most importantly, you can complete this swap for less the cost of a lower mileage LS(x) series engine if you do the work yourself. I know this because I’ve done the math.

Anyhow, hope you find my comments beneficial!

Cheers,
-Grimm
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1992 YJ, 4.0 HO, 5-Speed (AX-15), 2.5" lift, 31" tires, Sony sound system, w/ pioneer sound-bar, copper-red paint, Loved it. Miss it. Sold.|1999 XJ. The "Cheep". 4.5" RC lift. 33" BFG MT. Train Horns. 2wd to 4x4 build. DD. Sold.|2003 WJ. 30" Michelin AT's. Curt roof rack. Train Horns. Stock. Soon to be lifted. DD.
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Unread 12-07-2010, 08:46 AM   #19
kadetklapp
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In an XJ or MJ, what would be needed for the swap? Is the OM617 one-wire hookup to the Jeep or would there be a plethora of wiring to move over and hack into?

What would be needed to make the factory Jeep cluster work in this vehicle, say a cluster for 97-01?

And finally, I keep hearing mention of the AX-15. Is this a direct bolt-to with the Benz diesel? If not, what needs changed? Could it be made to work with the XJ's automatic trans?
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Unread 12-07-2010, 09:36 AM   #20
onespeedpaul
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OK, i've been researching this a bit more as far as the OM617 into an XJ/MJ, here;s what i've got to contribute:

Mercedes OM617 diesel to Jeep Wrangler AX15 AX-15 NV3550 Adapter Kit

the adapter kit is to use the jeep flywheel/starter/AX15 trans on the MB OM617. the motor mounts in the link are for a TJ, but could possibly be adapted to work in an XJ, or would provide a good basis for figuring out XJ-specific mounts.

on a side note: the adapter plate would work to attach an AW4 to the OM617, but a new adapter to for the flex-plate would be need to be fabricated.

as far as the 97-01 dash/electronis etc, my personal plan is just to 'piggyback' the ECU/etc over the OM617, meaning when i turn the key on, everything will power up like usual, but to start and shut down i will use two extra switches on the dash.
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Unread 12-07-2010, 11:36 AM   #21
kadetklapp
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Ok that's good to know. When you say "piggyback" do you mean that you will leave the XJ computer in place and trick it into operating the gauges? Does the OM617 require a computer itself?
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Unread 12-07-2010, 11:58 AM   #22
onespeedpaul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadetklapp View Post
Ok that's good to know. When you say "piggyback" do you mean that you will leave the XJ computer in place and trick it into operating the gauges? Does the OM617 require a computer itself?
that's it exactly. the speedo/odo works as usual since it's driven off the transfer, the water temp/oil pres/volt meter/fuel can all be operable with correct sending units/adapters, the only thing that won't function will be the tach, but a different one that does work could easily be installed in it's place.

the ECU will just think it's on but not running, but it will still move/function since the OM617 is almost entirely mechanical. the glow plugs can be wired in separately, from the separate starter switch perhaps?

if you're willing to do all the extra work, the harness probably could be reduced by half (see some threads on NAXJA jeepspeed section) like a racer, but why bother with a daily driver? the idea is to use as much of what is already there and functional.

i'm going to be looking for a donor 300D sometime between now and say april...
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Unread 12-07-2010, 12:27 PM   #23
DPDISXR4Ti
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Have you considered the 2.8 VM Motori oil burner? I believe you can buy one new for relatively short dollars, and you can get a version designed for industrial applications which (perhaps?) doesn't require computer control? I casually looked into this a couple years ago, so this is just off the top of my head.
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Unread 12-07-2010, 12:35 PM   #24
Hussler
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Bolts right up to the AX-15 eh? **** YEAH IM INTERESTED!!!

You want to sell this as a kit with the motor included?
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I see you also twizzled your scart lead. Well done! :thumbsup:
92 XJ with ARB's, 5" lift, too much armor, 33's and some other garbage
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Unread 12-07-2010, 01:29 PM   #25
onespeedpaul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPDISXR4Ti View Post
Have you considered the 2.8 VM Motori oil burner? I believe you can buy one new for relatively short dollars, and you can get a version designed for industrial applications which (perhaps?) doesn't require computer control? I casually looked into this a couple years ago, so this is just off the top of my head.
the one that came in the liberty CRD? i think even the industrial app one is common-rail (non-mechanical) and besides, the one in the liberty CRD got pretty bad reviews, not to mention finding one in a JY would be all but impossible.

my interest in the old benz om617 is that i can get the whole car for $1000-$2000 with relatively low miles. and for a conversion having an operational donor takes away alot of potential head scratching and scrounging for parts.
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Unread 12-07-2010, 03:23 PM   #26
jgrimm
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As far as the wiring goes, the OM617 requires only a few wires in order to run properly. Its a cake walk. As are most any older mechanical diesel engines.

Only issue in swapping when it comes to gauges is the tach; you will need to use the tach from the donor car.
OR
If you wish to have a different tachometer, you can construct one by building a simple circuit; a "rotation counter". If you put a mark on the crank pulley, you can build a circuit that counts each time the mark passes a sensor, translating into rpm readings. If you use a micro-controller, you can include features such as digital and fully programmable cruise control, and also a digital hand throttle (using cheap servos). You can also program the engine to idle higher or lower according to ambient air temperature.

Nathan Koch (pronounced "Coke") of Koch Enterprises makes the adapter kit. I have personally spoken with Mr. Koch and have been granted his permission to sell and offer his conversions through my shop. I am not the manufacturer of the adapter, I own a shop in NC and will possibly build and sell a complete vehicle turn-key. I perform these conversions on an appointment basis. Koch Enterprises does not offer engine mounts for the XJ Cherokee at this time, but if R&D continues, I will offer engine mounts through my own company. Mr Koch is currently developing a kit to bolt the OM617 to the AX-5 5-speed used in most 4 cylinder wranglers. According to Koch Enterprises, they aren't developing an adapter for any automatic transmission at this time and the most current project underway is an adapter for the Toyota 4-Runner.

The OM617 uses no ECU. The absence of the Jeep ECU will have no effect on the diesel engine running; its totally mechanical. The ECU may be needed to run other parts/accessories of the Jeep.

The factory engine harness from the Jeep will remain largely unused. The ignition wires will be used, along with all wires relating to any electrical accessories/utilities unrelated to the engine that you wish to keep in working order.

If you wish to keep your AC, you'll have to marry the Jeeps AC controls to the new AC pump/system. Your heat controls should still function properly if the wiring is left untouched, as long as the heater core is attached to the OM617 properly.

As for the Motari 2.8 CRD Diesel; I do not know very much about this little engine, but I have seen several of them involved in engine fires. I'm not saying that they are bad engines or prone to spontaneously bursting into flame, but just stating the fact that Ive seen several of them in such condition, which may be nothing more than mere coincidence. One thing is certain; there are not many of these engines and they are a bit more expensive than the Mercedes diesel. They also require an ECU, therefore installation would be considerably harder and more time consuming due to the wiring. To conclude; the 2.8 Motari Diesel is still quite new and I have yet to find any substantial evidence backing up its longevity, durability, and reliability in the long run, as many vehicles powered by this engine still have yet to reach the digits considered "high mileage" here in the US. Compared to the 2.8 Motari, the Mercedes-Benz OM617 has, over several decades, rightly earned its reputation for being incredibly long-living and durable.

Unfortunately for this thread, and fortunately for myself, I have located a beautiful Wrangler for sale and may go that route as opposed to purchasing and building a Cherokee of this sort, but I will continue monitoring this thread and answering questions about this engine and conversion.

-Grimm
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1992 YJ, 4.0 HO, 5-Speed (AX-15), 2.5" lift, 31" tires, Sony sound system, w/ pioneer sound-bar, copper-red paint, Loved it. Miss it. Sold.|1999 XJ. The "Cheep". 4.5" RC lift. 33" BFG MT. Train Horns. 2wd to 4x4 build. DD. Sold.|2003 WJ. 30" Michelin AT's. Curt roof rack. Train Horns. Stock. Soon to be lifted. DD.

Last edited by jgrimm; 12-07-2010 at 03:43 PM..
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Unread 12-07-2010, 06:12 PM   #27
DPDISXR4Ti
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Originally Posted by onespeedpaul View Post
the one that came in the liberty CRD?
Not exactly. It was over a year ago now, so details escape me, but there was some company selling new 2.8 TD engines for something like $3500. I'm actually assumming it was the VM Motori, but that's an assumption based in the 2.8L. I just went looking now and no luck, so it's sorta a moot point unless I come across it again.
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Unread 12-07-2010, 06:23 PM   #28
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Been wanting to do this for a while and frankly surprised it hasnt been really done before on here that I know of. This may kick me into gear to get the project going... Just would need a older vehicle (pre-96')
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Unread 12-07-2010, 06:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by jgrimm View Post

Unfortunately for this thread, and fortunately for myself, I have located a beautiful Wrangler for sale and may go that route as opposed to purchasing and building a Cherokee of this sort
-Grimm
And do what? Put on 2 inches of lift, 31" tires and some KC hi-lights?

Come on man be original, here's your chance
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I see you also twizzled your scart lead. Well done! :thumbsup:
92 XJ with ARB's, 5" lift, too much armor, 33's and some other garbage
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Unread 12-07-2010, 07:49 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by jgrimm View Post
Also, one can crank up the performance of the diesel by removing the rack limiter. If you add an intercooler, you will see a significant gain there as well. People have already breached the 300HP mark with these engines. Most only use a performance injector pump and elements paired with a few other external upgrades (no tearing into the engine is necessary) Toss on a larger turbo and you will also see a decent increase in output numbers.
It is not quite that simple to crank up the power, you would need to change the injection pump and add the intercooler and some other mods however people have done much more than 300HP with the proper applications. Check this site Diesel Performance Tuning - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum
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