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Unread 12-02-2012, 04:34 PM   #1
OnTheFence
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Can't even get the oil filter adapter T60 wrench onto the bolt.



I tried to do my oil filter adapter today.
After about 1 hour of trying, I could not even get the L-wrench onto the T60 nut.
It wasn't a clearance issue, it just would not seat into the star.
Has anyone's ever rusted out enough to not allow a T60 to seat properly?
Or, do you think I have the wrong kind of T60? Is "star" different than "Torx"?
I used this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/110958008484?

Do people get this to fit from above or below?
There was no way I could get it to seat from above.
I did get it to seat once from below, but, from there, there was no way I could get any sort of twisting motion on it without it just falling out.

Forget getting a 3 foot breaker/cheater bar onto this to actually crack the red locktite. If you can only do this from below, this requires a lift.
Also, this seems to be a two man job, with one man holding the T60 wrench in place while the other uses the breaker bar.

Yet again, another DIY repair that takes 1 hour to get aborted before you can even complete step 1.
You gotta love this sh/t and laugh, or you'll kill yourself.
It seems like Jeep projects seem way more complex than BMW repairs.
Working on a BMW is like playing with Lego's compared to the crazy stuff you need to do with Jeeps.
I'm starting to realize people on the Jeep forums are highly expert mechanics, and a lot of this Jeep stuff is just not for beginners.







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Unread 12-02-2012, 04:47 PM   #2
mschi772
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I feel your pain. I had to do this and read write-ups about it online, but couldn't really do it as advertised either. In any case, spray some PB or some Liquid Wrench (a rust disolver of some kind) into the star and swipe as best as you can at it with a brush to make sure there's nothing in the way of fitting your wrench in there. The only leverage I used was a 2ish foot handle from my jack. A super huge 3+ foot bar shouldn't be necessary, and I did not need to lift the Jeep.

Two things I've done is:

This one only works if you have a L-wrench with a hex-shaped shaft unlike the round one you have pictured. Cut off the end of a T60 L-wrench with just enough room beyond the star to get a wrench around (ratcheting box wrench makes it really easy). Weld the T60 bit to the wrench if you want a permanent tool for this job.

OR (and this is what I do these days)

Put your jack under the oil pan (use a wooden board between the jack and the pan). Jack the engine up very slightly then remove the passenger side motor mount bolt. Jack the engine up until you can easily get whatever tool into place and turning the adapter bolt (I just use a T60 L-wrench with my jack handle slipped over it for leverage). This should be pretty easy to do for a novice. You'll spend lots of time the first time bouncing between your jack and checking for clearance because you won't want to jack the engine too high. I honestly can't remember if, using this method, I turned the adapter bolt from above or below, but I'm sure you can figure-out which when you get there.

There are some other methods people have used, but while it may take a few minutes longer, I really prefer just lift/tilting out of that passenger side motor mount. It doesn't require any "special" tools, isn't dangerous as long as you're careful, and gives you enough space to get the job done pretty easily.
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Unread 12-02-2012, 05:42 PM   #3
OnTheFence
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I don't think a wrench will help.
I can't get the wrench securely INTO the star recess in the first place.
In other words, turning is not my problem. I'm not even at that point.
The l-wrench barely goes into the star hole.

Also, I really prefer not to jack the engine.
Clearance was not my issue. The L-wrench has room to spare.
I have no idea how much you can jack it without F'ing something major up.
I also have no idea what things need to be loosened before to jack it.

I will try to PB and wire brush the star hole, and see if it seats any better.
Either way, this is definitely a 2 person job, b/c no way in hell the L-wrench stays IN the hole while you're turning.
Do you think using a T55 socket is a huge mistake?

I will probably just pay the dealer to do this job (or just say F it, there are bigger fish to fry on this XJ, and just check the oil every fill up)
I can do driveway level stuff...turn bolts, and do remove/replace, but this is for real mechanics.
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Unread 12-02-2012, 10:15 PM   #4
02grandy
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this is how i did it .

bought a t60 3/8" socket that is removable....thats what it should be
pop it out so you just have an 1" long t60 piece about
then the tricky part of get the angles and position right to "SNAP/POP/CRACK" it free
i used two combi wrenches put the closed on t60 end and have the facing in towards the engine i believe. put some duct on it semi loose so nothing slips off
now you half way there...
lock the other wrench on to it so now you are building your leverage arm. i then put a piece of pipe over it most of the way down or all the way. my pipe was about 2 feet long
i also used duct tape to hold the pipe to the wrench
you need to get in the position as far back as possible towards the alternator because you are gonna push in towards the firewall
the wrench at the bottom might flex when you push
as long as you have the right angle and plant your feet push push push and POP it breaks free ...
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Unread 12-03-2012, 09:13 AM   #5
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
I don't think a wrench will help.
I can't get the wrench securely INTO the star recess in the first place.
In other words, turning is not my problem. I'm not even at that point.
The l-wrench barely goes into the star hole.

Also, I really prefer not to jack the engine.
Clearance was not my issue. The L-wrench has room to spare.
I have no idea how much you can jack it without F'ing something major up.
I also have no idea what things need to be loosened before to jack it.

I will try to PB and wire brush the star hole, and see if it seats any better.
Either way, this is definitely a 2 person job, b/c no way in hell the L-wrench stays IN the hole while you're turning.
Do you think using a T55 socket is a huge mistake?

I will probably just pay the dealer to do this job (or just say F it, there are bigger fish to fry on this XJ, and just check the oil every fill up)
I can do driveway level stuff...turn bolts, and do remove/replace, but this is for real mechanics.
I see what you're saying. Yeah, it sounds like something is in the way, and you just need to clean it out. It does look pretty "swollen" with rust. Wire brush is what I used, but I was also ready to curve the tip of an ice pick or small flathead screwdriver in case I really needed to get in there and scrape crap out of the nooks/crannies.

I think a T55 would be far too risky given the amount of torque needed to get that bolt loose. If it were to slip and damage the bolt in some way, you could be really screwed. I was able to sink my T60 in far enough that it would just barely hang there all by itself, so this, ideally, shouldn't be a 2-man job (a helper is always nice though no matter what you're doing).

I'm not saying that it can't be done without lifting the engine, but it would be so much easier if you do especially since as that bolt backs out of the engine block, you lose more and more clearance. I could actually turn my bolt without lifting the engine, but I didn't have enough room for the wrench to back it all the way out. If memory serves, I lifted the passenger side of the block about 2 inches above the mount (maybe a little more). It can be done and is done by many people without hurting anything. As long as you don't go insanely high, the only thing that happens is that the block pivots around the driver's side mount, and the only real stress is applied to the exhaust which can handle the minuscule twist applied.

If your adapter is leaking, I don't recommend the "F-it" route. Oil leaks from the adapter will get blown all over your starter and kill it in no time. I know it's frustrating, but is is one of the few terribly designed areas of an XJ and only exists because variations of this engine has been in existence since 1964 and wasn't designed with the frame of an XJ in mind--the adapter was "necessary" to fit the filter (a smaller filter can be used without the adapter, but motor mounts must be in perfect shape or risk crushing the filter). Most other tasks on the XJ will be more straight-forward.
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Unread 12-03-2012, 10:23 AM   #6
OnTheFence
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Thanks. I'll avoid the T55. If wire brush cleaning it doesn't allow the T60 to fully seat, then I will see if a pro mechanic is capable of this. I doubt many mechanics have even done this ridiculous task. They don't have a welded T60 hackjob home tool like posted. I am not going to spend much on this, however. I'd pay 1 hour, tops. I already have $7000 worth of repairs slated to make this stock XJ a reliable driver. If I can't get the L-wrench to seat, neither will they. No chance in hell I'm not going to lift the block and potentially rip the exhaust, or maim myself, etc. I already have a crack in the exhaust manifold as it is. This is like the horror stories you hear about Vega/Monzas where you need to lift the engine out of the car to change a spark plug, or remove the entire front end to change a fan belt. It's def. WAY easier to work on German cars, for sure.

I don't see how oil on the starter can kill the starter. It will just make it dirty on the outside. If it was that porous, then water would have already gotten in years ago. This XJ was owned by a mechanic who didn't invest a penny into this car beyond basic fluids, so this OFA leak has probably been going on for years. And it's still on the first starter. If I got paranoid, I could research putting Saran Wrap-like wrapping around the entire starter. If I am wrong, and since the starter is an easy DIY, I will just replace the starters as they fail (And keep an eye on the oil each gas tank fillup) Still cheaper than paying a mechanic $500. That's 5 starters which might mean 20 years of driving.
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Unread 12-03-2012, 10:40 AM   #7
jeepkid03
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Another reason I hate torx and star bolts. My oil filter adapter leaks slightly, but after reading threads about the trouble others have had, I haven't attempted to fix it.

My friend's dad has an '89 XJ with over 300k miles. Its been leaking from the oil filter adapter as long as I can remember. It had the original starter up until a year ago when his wife ran it out of gas and just kept cranking it over.
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Unread 12-03-2012, 11:01 AM   #8
Pats94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02grandy View Post
this is how i did it .

bought a t60 3/8" socket that is removable....thats what it should be
pop it out so you just have an 1" long t60 piece about
then the tricky part of get the angles and position right to "SNAP/POP/CRACK" it free
i used two combi wrenches put the closed on t60 end and have the facing in towards the engine i believe. put some duct on it semi loose so nothing slips off
now you half way there...
lock the other wrench on to it so now you are building your leverage arm. i then put a piece of pipe over it most of the way down or all the way. my pipe was about 2 feet long
i also used duct tape to hold the pipe to the wrench
you need to get in the position as far back as possible towards the alternator because you are gonna push in towards the firewall
the wrench at the bottom might flex when you push
as long as you have the right angle and plant your feet push push push and POP it breaks free ...
I did it this way too. clean the star hole out well before you even try to put it in. I still used a small prybar to make sure that it was fully seated.
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Unread 12-03-2012, 11:09 AM   #9
Bbasso
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here's the tools that mine easy...
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Unread 12-03-2012, 12:53 PM   #10
SuperSam
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I just changed mine doing this ^^^. I had to spend some time cleaning out the hole to get the bit in. because of the angle of the adapter bolt it had a tendancy to roll out, but I was able to get it out with only a couple of mm penetration into the recess. Also I only needed a 12" piece of conduit for a cheater bar.
Good luck.
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Unread 12-03-2012, 01:20 PM   #11
sAe23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02grandy View Post
this is how i did it .

bought a t60 3/8" socket that is removable....thats what it should be
pop it out so you just have an 1" long t60 piece about
then the tricky part of get the angles and position right to "SNAP/POP/CRACK" it free
[snip]...
It's hard to tell from the OPs pictures, but isn't there enough room to use the T60 with the ratchet as designed??

And to the OP, I feel your pain. After ten minutes I would have been calling my mechanic. Power tools and a LIFT make all the difference
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Unread 12-03-2012, 02:11 PM   #12
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sAe23 View Post
It's hard to tell from the OPs pictures, but isn't there enough room to use the T60 with the ratchet as designed??
Nope. At least not with any room to actually turn the bolt out of the block. L-wrench is my favorite, but many guys seem to like using a bit with a wrench (welded or not) since that has an even lower profile.

Many people here including myself have misunderstood the problem. The problem is not the room to fit the tool and turn it; Fence is having a hard time actually fitting the bit into the bolt.


Fence, I know what you've said, and I can respect whatever your decision, but your phrasing is such that I feel I should be extra clear just to be on the safe side. I am not advocating that you disconnect your engine and completely lift it. All I'm saying is that if you disconnect just the pass. side mount and lift with jack (using a board to distribute the pressure more evenly) such that it tilts the passenger side up just an inch or two, this job will be easier and will cause no harm. You can set-up a jackstand or two under the block or motor mount once it is up as a safety net to keep the engine from falling down in case some freak accident occurs with your jack while you're working.

With the right prep and tools, changing this O-ring is quick, so should you decide to have a pro do it, just make sure they know exactly what they're getting into because you're right--most probably have no idea about this adapter and its O-ring and have never done it before. Assuming they're clear on what needs to be done, they should be able to have it done quite quickly for it.

P.S. Here is a writeup that ends with eliminating the adapter permanently. http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/c...rokee-1162291/ I considered it, but since getting the adapter OFF was the hardest part and necessary either way, I figured I'd just replace the O-ring so that I could keep a stock or oversized oil filter and not risk damaging one on the motor mount/frame.
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Unread 12-03-2012, 04:48 PM   #13
donthelegend
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I actually managed to bend a 13mm combo wrench trying to loosen mine. I had the tools to make a specialty tool with a torx welded to the end of a breaker bar, which obviously won't work for you. But I found it much easier to seat the torx head with the removable bit that several people have posted instead of the L wrench. It allows you to seat it completely squarely and turn it as much as necessary. I also found that removing the battery and coolant overflow bottle allowed me to get an extended breaker on the bolt squarely.

As always, YMMV.
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Unread 12-03-2012, 06:09 PM   #14
OnTheFence
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I used PB blaster and a pick tool to scrape this star hole out. As you can see below, the T60 wrench still barely goes into the hole. Can you see the faint depth marks? It only goes in like 1/8" of an inch. I feel there is no chance in hell I can put ANY turning force on this wrench without it immediately stripping whatever it's barely grabbing. Or just falling out. Ideally, it needs to be hammered into the hole to stay, but there is clearly no room for a hammer in here. If you need enough force to potentially break an L-wrench, there is no way this thing can ever work. It will fall or slip out long before even 1% of that amount of force/torque can possibly be applied.

I do agree think the L-wrench is too bulky to use. It just gets in it's own way and has very little clearance to twist into the star hole. I think I could get a short little T60 socket seated better b/c I can twist it in my fingers.
Is anyone willing to lend/mail me their hand-welded T60 tool so I can try the socket/wrench/weld approach? If so, PM me. I will reimburse shipping, and have it mailed back within a week.

I have to say, not being able to even BEGIN some of these write-ups is a serious wake-up call. Having to fab/grind/weld your own tools is the other. In general, I am starting to realize that working on Jeeps is not really for beginner hobbyists without live mentorship or advanced garage setups (welders, bench vice, lifts, air hammers, etc). Someone like me who mainly turn bolts with a basic $1000 worth of hand tools might be better off with a cleaner RAV4 or X3 for winter commuting and basic DIY. Maybe buying a good running 125k XJ, but was barely been maintained beyond $5 fluids was a mistake. I don't want to invest $7000 into "refreshing" an XJ that has a permanent oil leak. And other things that can't be fixed. Maybe the smarter move might be to stop investing in this XJ, and just drive this thing into the ground or just sell it after the winter is over. Dropping $750 on rotors, exhaust, hubs, and u-joints as my first mechanic repair was folly. That's long term stuff, and I am slowing shifting my lens to that of temporary ownership that can be limited to a $1700 mistake, if I cut my losses right now. ($2200 for the 1998 XJ w/ 125k, already invested $2000 in 1 month, but can sell as is for $2500 I think) Ignoring this option may be foolish, unfortunately, as this XJ project might get a whole lot worse before it gets better.

Of course, the other option is to just say "F/ck it" with regards to the OFA, and other minor details, and just let it leak (always check the oil) and enjoy the XJ for what it is. A beater spare car that should be ok in the snow, but will always has small issues. Maybe trying to make it "refreshed/renewed" (like you'd do with an older BMW) is barking up the wrong tree. If I just drive it, invest nothing beyond bare minimum repairs, I could be ok with that. After all, the XJ runs great, and it's only an oil leak, and I'm only into it for $4000 once I get tires. Then, I just fix stuff as it comes instead of treating it like a $7000 hobby.



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Unread 12-03-2012, 07:25 PM   #15
Bbasso
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