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Unread 04-03-2014, 05:43 PM   #1
TrailRated2011
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It's the Law? In Ontario & Quebec

Recent equipment-related posts in my Club about provincial motor vehicle laws / regulations and enforcement by police opened up a whole new area that I wasn't aware of! What an interesting / relevant subject for Jeep Wrangler owners. Good to be aware of this stuff. It'd be awesome if we had someone in this thread that was in law enforcement (traffic/motor vehicle) that could tell us how this stuff is interpreted from a police officer's perspective.

I searched in the following Ontario and Quebec publications and picked some equipment items from a few that caught my attention.

Regulations I found interesting as a Wrangler owner included:
- Opening of doors of motor vehicles
- mudguards and fenders
- mirrors attached to the vehicle
- bumpers
- handheld devices

Ontario, Highway Traffic Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8 (PART VI EQUIPMENT)
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/sta...08_e.htm#bk104

Opening of doors of motor vehicles
165. No person shall,

(b) leave a door of a motor vehicle on a highway open on the side of the vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than is necessary to load or unload passengers. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 165

ie. Opening of doors of motor vehicles
Quebec, Highway Safety Code
http://www2.publicationsduquebec.gou...2/C24_2_A.html

431. No person may leave the door of a road vehicle open except to take on or discharge passengers or to load or unload property. 1986, c. 91, s. 431

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TrailRated2011
Canada - Nat'l Capital Region
Know your angles before approaching obstacles and
follow the general rule of off-roading, "Go as slow as you can, as fast as you must."
I'm on the Web: geres.ca
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Unread 04-03-2014, 09:15 PM   #2
Xride
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Two things.

First, the opinions or interpretation of laws by an officer means squat. You want to know the judges interpretation.

Second. I don't know what you are getting at with your post? Are you trying to say that you can't go doorless? Because that is not even close to what that law says.


Mirrors.... you only legally need two mirrors. Be it the two side mirrors or a side mirror and rear view mirror.

Mud guards and fenders.... fenders have to cover the outside edge of the tire. Mud guards, thats more complicated, the body or guard must be to at least the center line of the axle, or there is some ratio of height off the ground and rear edge of the vehicle.

Bumper heights, Most places in the US are max of 24" (for passenger vehicles, you get a bit more height with heavier vehicles)
Canada, Alberta it's 50cm, or about 20" max to the main structural part. Quebec it's not legal to modify the height, Ontario is dependant on local laws. But to me it seems like it has to be more complicated. You also have headlight max height, which is about 1.2m if I remember right, measured from the ground to the lowest headlight (not fog light).
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Unread 04-04-2014, 04:07 AM   #3
TrailRated2011
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Ticket, a Warning or Not Stopping Me At All?

Wow, until yesterday's Club posts I had never questioned the legality of having my doors off on public roads---a ticket from the police for doing so never entered my mind! What a bummer. Even my Owner's Manual, Front Door Removal instructions say not to drive door-less on public roads.

"Do not drive your vehicle on public roads with the doors removed as you will lose the protection that they can provide. This procedure is furnished for use during off-road operation only."

The yet unanswered question for me now is, "What would a police officer do---a ticket, a warning or not bother stopping me at all?" I plan to run around town this summer without doors---in Quebec and Ontario (National Capital Region)

If, I'm cited for anything equipment-related on my Wrangler and a ticket is written up---I'm supposing that it'd be a hassle (time and money) to challenge. The Quebec and Ontario motor vehicle laws that I browsed through yesterday weren't easy for me to decipher.

In the end I think that I'll just drop by---or e-mail---the provincial police detachment or local city police and ask them. Most importantly ask them to point out the specific regulation or law that justifies a citation.
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TrailRated2011
Canada - Nat'l Capital Region
Know your angles before approaching obstacles and
follow the general rule of off-roading, "Go as slow as you can, as fast as you must."
I'm on the Web: geres.ca

Last edited by TrailRated2011; 04-04-2014 at 04:08 AM.. Reason: minor edit
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Unread 04-04-2014, 07:42 AM   #4
Xride
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailRated2011 View Post
Wow, until yesterday's Club posts I had never questioned the legality of having my doors off on public roads---a ticket from the police for doing so never entered my mind! What a bummer. Even my Owner's Manual, Front Door Removal instructions say not to drive door-less on public roads.

"Do not drive your vehicle on public roads with the doors removed as you will lose the protection that they can provide. This procedure is furnished for use during off-road operation only."

The yet unanswered question for me now is, "What would a police officer do---a ticket, a warning or not bother stopping me at all?" I plan to run around town this summer without doors---in Quebec and Ontario (National Capital Region)

If, I'm cited for anything equipment-related on my Wrangler and a ticket is written up---I'm supposing that it'd be a hassle (time and money) to challenge. The Quebec and Ontario motor vehicle laws that I browsed through yesterday weren't easy for me to decipher.

In the end I think that I'll just drop by---or e-mail---the provincial police detachment or local city police and ask them. Most importantly ask them to point out the specific regulation or law that justifies a citation.

There is no law about removing your doors. The cops will do nothing, just keep your appendages inside the vehicle.
The warnings inside your owners manual are for liability.
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Unread 04-13-2014, 04:19 PM   #5
TrailRated2011
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Here's My Findings

Over the past week+, I contacted local law enforcement...here's my findings.

WHO I CONTACTED:

Ontario
  • Ottawa Police Service
  • Ontario Provincial Police (OPP)

Quebec
  • Service de police de la Ville de Gatineau
  • Sûreté du Québec (SQ)

WHAT I LEARNED:

  • Driving modified Jeep Wranglers on public highways or roadways? Rules and regulations can be found online for provincial traffic laws and driver safety guidelines (equipment-related too).
  • Rules and regulations applicable to public highways or roadways do not apply when off-road.
  • Neither Ontario or Quebec have restrictions for door-less Jeep Wranglers using public highways or roadways.
  • Law enforcement can issue a citation (ticket) if driver and / or passenger(s) are not secured safely in their seats and are at risk of falling out of an open door.
  • Law enforcement can issue a citation (ticket) if items/things (contents) within the vehicle are apt to fall / blow out of a door-less Jeep Wrangler (ie. into the path of other motorists).
  • Doors removed? Two mirrors are mandatory (one rear-view in front of driver and the other on the outside passenger-side of vehicle)

MY TAKE HOME:

The key message that police would like Jeep Wrangler owners / clubs to hear: Be familiar with the laws---but don't lose sight of the most important thing---public safety. Think safety first (driver / passengers / other motorists and users of public highways and roadways).

Side note: It's not unlawful to drive door-less---but when it comes to safety on on public highways or roadways, the likelihood of injury / harm is increased if doors are not used. Take heed from the experience of emergency first responders (police, fire and ambulance).

Side Note: Don't assume that an automotive services provider or dealership effecting modifications to your stock vehicle will know what's legal or illegal for public highways or roadways.
__________________
TrailRated2011
Canada - Nat'l Capital Region
Know your angles before approaching obstacles and
follow the general rule of off-roading, "Go as slow as you can, as fast as you must."
I'm on the Web: geres.ca

Last edited by TrailRated2011; 04-13-2014 at 04:21 PM.. Reason: minor edit
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Unread 07-01-2014, 08:14 PM   #6
Luck881
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Petawawa, Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailRated2011 View Post
Over the past week+, I contacted local law enforcement...here's my findings.

WHO I CONTACTED:

Ontario
  • Ottawa Police Service
  • Ontario Provincial Police (OPP)

Quebec
  • Service de police de la Ville de Gatineau
  • Sûreté du Québec (SQ)

WHAT I LEARNED:

  • Driving modified Jeep Wranglers on public highways or roadways? Rules and regulations can be found online for provincial traffic laws and driver safety guidelines (equipment-related too).
  • Rules and regulations applicable to public highways or roadways do not apply when off-road.
  • Neither Ontario or Quebec have restrictions for door-less Jeep Wranglers using public highways or roadways.
  • Law enforcement can issue a citation (ticket) if driver and / or passenger(s) are not secured safely in their seats and are at risk of falling out of an open door.
  • Law enforcement can issue a citation (ticket) if items/things (contents) within the vehicle are apt to fall / blow out of a door-less Jeep Wrangler (ie. into the path of other motorists).
  • Doors removed? Two mirrors are mandatory (one rear-view in front of driver and the other on the outside passenger-side of vehicle)

MY TAKE HOME:

The key message that police would like Jeep Wrangler owners / clubs to hear: Be familiar with the laws---but don't lose sight of the most important thing---public safety. Think safety first (driver / passengers / other motorists and users of public highways and roadways).

Side note: It's not unlawful to drive door-less---but when it comes to safety on on public highways or roadways, the likelihood of injury / harm is increased if doors are not used. Take heed from the experience of emergency first responders (police, fire and ambulance).

Side Note: Don't assume that an automotive services provider or dealership effecting modifications to your stock vehicle will know what's legal or illegal for public highways or roadways.

Necroposting here, but this drives me nuts...
from Ontario H.T.A. - http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/sta...08_e.htm#BK120

66. (1) Every motor vehicle other than a motorcycle shall be equipped with,

(a) a device for cleaning rain, snow and other moisture from the windshield so constructed as to be controlled or operated by the driver;

(b) a mirror or mirrors securely attached to the vehicle and placed in such a position as to afford the driver a clearly reflected view of the roadway in the rear, or of any vehicle approaching from the rear. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 66 (1).

Things haven't changed since 2005 when I first checked into it, the windshield mounted mirror is fine as long as it's not blocked.
In Ontario anyway. Quebec, don't care. I only drive 5km into the place for beer...
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Unread 07-01-2014, 10:17 PM   #7
5-90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailRated2011 View Post
Recent equipment-related posts in my Club about provincial motor vehicle laws / regulations and enforcement by police opened up a whole new area that I wasn't aware of! What an interesting / relevant subject for Jeep Wrangler owners. Good to be aware of this stuff. It'd be awesome if we had someone in this thread that was in law enforcement (traffic/motor vehicle) that could tell us how this stuff is interpreted from a police officer's perspective.

I searched in the following Ontario and Quebec publications and picked some equipment items from a few that caught my attention.

Regulations I found interesting as a Wrangler owner included:
- Opening of doors of motor vehicles
- mudguards and fenders
- mirrors attached to the vehicle
- bumpers
- handheld devices

Ontario, Highway Traffic Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8 (PART VI EQUIPMENT)
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/sta...08_e.htm#bk104

Opening of doors of motor vehicles
165. No person shall,

(b) leave a door of a motor vehicle on a highway open on the side of the vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than is necessary to load or unload passengers. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 165

ie. Opening of doors of motor vehicles
Quebec, Highway Safety Code
http://www2.publicationsduquebec.gou...2/C24_2_A.html

431. No person may leave the door of a road vehicle open except to take on or discharge passengers or to load or unload property. 1986, c. 91, s. 431
I read that as actually having the door stand open for longer than necessary for ingress/egress - close it if no-one or nothing is going through it.

While I'm tired of all the laws, that's something I'd like to see enforced around here - too damned many people open the door wide into traffic and walk off...

The Hell of it? You can't effectively legislate common sense.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 05:36 PM   #8
roblaza
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HTA OREG 611 SAFETY STANDARDS

(6) The condition and security of each prescribed mirror shall be inspected and,
(a) no prescribed mirror shall be missing;
(b) each mirror shall be securely mounted and maintain a set adjustment;
(c) no mirror shall be cracked, broken or have any significant reduction in reflecting surface owing to deterioration of the silvering; and
(d) in the case of a motor vehicle where there is no rear window, or the view through the rear window is restricted in such a way as not to afford a driver a clear view to the rear of the motor vehicle, the outside rear view mirror or mirrors shall not be missing

Motor Vehicle Safety Act.
Prescribed Mirrors Section 111
(11) An outside rearview mirror shall be installed on the driver’s side of every passenger car and three-wheeled vehicle.


So yes, 1 OUTSIDE rearview mirror must be present. ALSO, the safety standards states that no prescribed mirror shall be missing...in other words, if it comes from the factory with outside mirrors, they need to be there. I studdied this for 3 years, and asked many professors on the subject and they all reffered me to these 2 sections.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 09:21 PM   #9
Luck881
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OREG 611 refers to standards for a safety inspection. Says it right in the first line, sub-paras are the inspection standards that a mechanic has to go by. Nobody would get ticketed for that. It would be like getting a ticket for having a bad ball joint or your check engine light being on...

Motor vehicle Safety Act is federal and deals with the manufacture of vehicles. So, yeah it states that Jeep had to put a mirror on the drivers side to sell it in Canada. How many cars on the road don't have working DRL's? Also in the MVSA. Never heard of someone getting a ticket for not having lights on in the daytime...

Anyway, I studied this for about an hour with the (at the time) 4 police forces in the area, and then practiced it for almost 10 years now and never been ticketed by a cop, or a professor for that matter.

Do I have issue with people that want mirrors? Not at all, if it makes you feel safer.

I did get pulled over once though, door and side mirror-less... The OPP cop watching for drunks leaving the Warehouse informed me that I was responsible for the paint fading off my Ontario-issued license plate, and that I had to have it replaced at my own cost since apparently they're warrantied for so many years, but I was past that. He let me go with a warning saying he knew my vehicle (maybe because of the lack of doors and mirrors) and would be watching or me in the coming weeks. I thanked him or his concern and went on my way. A day later and 8 bucks for a tube of Ford Metallic Blue touch-up paint from CT, and I was back in business. Haven't seen him since... nice guy though...
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Unread 07-10-2014, 08:23 PM   #10
roblaza
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Section 84.(1) of the HTA:

84. (1) No person shall drive or operate or permit the driving or operation upon a highway of a vehicle, a street car or vehicles that in combination are in such a dangerous or unsafe condition as to endanger any person. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 84.

If your vehicle is missing mirrors WHICH ARE NEEDED TO PASS ONTARIO SAFETY STANDARDS (oreg 611) and it does not have them, technically you can be stopped and ticketed for operating an unsafe vehicle. TECHNICALLY.
Will it happen, probably not, but the opportunity for the police (if he or she is feeling like being an absolute prick) to ticket you is there. This is what I was in school for, and they show you a lot of little "tricks of the trade" so to speak in which they can get you in different areas. Situations like this were a common test question, and we had to find loopholes in the situation to charge the person with as many things as we could.
Technically, there isn't a law forbidding you to remove the mirrors, BUT there's safety issues that come into play when you do, therefore opening up an whole other area of the HTA that they CAN charge you with. Same thing with the Ball joint comment... if it's bad enough to fail the Ontario Safety, technically it should not be plated and on the road therefore affording the opportunity to be charged with Operating an unsafe vehicle. BUT AGAIN, WILL IT HAPPEN probably not, but there's a chance.
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Unread 07-14-2014, 12:39 AM   #11
Luck881
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Nothing on the plate story?


Either way, drive in an unsafe matter in front of a cop with or without mirrors and you'll be ticketed. But as long as you have mirrors, you won't have safety charges thrown in for them not being there...


Still not illegal to drive without side mirrors.
(in Ontario, which was my point)


Don't think I'm being argumentative, I'm enjoying this.
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Unread 08-29-2014, 02:44 PM   #12
dporter
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Blue touch up paint does not fix your faded license plate. The correct paint is reflective, yours is not. You still need to replace your plate.

There is a charge for painting your plate if caught. I can't remember what it is. Maybe defacing or altering.
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Unread 08-29-2014, 03:00 PM   #13
dporter
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LUCK881

Blue touch up paint did not fix your license plate issue. The correct paint is reflective.

In fact you have now defaced and/or altered your plate and have committed an offense under the HTA, and would be subject to seizure of your plates and a fine (as well as having your vehicle towed).

Just have the plates replaced it is far simpler and cheaper.
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Unread 08-16-2015, 02:40 PM   #14
revrnd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dporter View Post
LUCK881

Blue touch up paint did not fix your license plate issue. The correct paint is reflective.

In fact you have now defaced and/or altered your plate and have committed an offense under the HTA, and would be subject to seizure of your plates and a fine (as well as having your vehicle towed).

Just have the plates replaced it is far simpler and cheaper.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...sily-1.1353738

Quote:
But Service Ontario does admit "materials used in the manufacturing of licence plates have changed over the years to maximize visibility and improve environmental impact."
I've noticed that since they went to the reflective film from painted plates that the durability has suffered.
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