Suspension Airbags or Weight Distributing Hitch? - Page 2 - JeepForum.com

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #16 of 47 Old 06-20-2012, 05:58 AM
little_Jeep
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPond View Post
Well said!
Thank you!

little_Jeep is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 47 Old 07-10-2012, 01:01 PM
porrsher
Registered User
1994 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jefferson,GA
Posts: 649
Definitely would recommend wdh. And as stated above the hitch needs to be adjusted (tilt of head) just right to distribute the weight to all axles. This includes the trailer's axles as well not just the front of the vehicle. On my wj I have it adjusted so that the entire jeep goes down 1/2 evenly. Meaning the rear and front wheel well go down by that much when hooked up to my rv. Keep in mind that you must have the gear in your ride that you plan to haul and a full tank of gas is recommended when adjusting the hitch. This will aid in to have it properly distributing weight.

Sent from my iPhone using JeepForum

1994 Hunter Green ZJ 5.2L Quadratrac
228k Miles, 2" BB.
2002 Slate Grey Grand Cherokee Overland
161k Bone Stock
2008 Black JK Sahara Unlimited (Love it!)
porrsher is offline  
post #18 of 47 Old 07-10-2012, 03:14 PM
little_Jeep
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by porrsher View Post
Definitely would recommend wdh. And as stated above the hitch needs to be adjusted (tilt of head) just right to distribute the weight to all axles. This includes the trailer's axles as well not just the front of the vehicle. On my wj I have it adjusted so that the entire jeep goes down 1/2 evenly. Meaning the rear and front wheel well go down by that much when hooked up to my rv. Keep in mind that you must have the gear in your ride that you plan to haul and a full tank of gas is recommended when adjusting the hitch. This will aid in to have it properly distributing weight.

Sent from my iPhone using JeepForum
SAY WHAT?? Unless the directions for your WDH were different than mine, the important measurements required for correct setup compared the natural ride height of the front bumber, and the rear bumper of the tow rig (without trailer). Then you needed to find the level ride height of the trailer (not attached to the tow rig). In a nutshell, skipping a few steps, when all was connected, the important measurements required that the front bumper raise something like 3/4 inch, but no more than 2 inches.. and that the rear bumper squat more than 2 inches but not more than 3 inches, and that the tongue of the trailer be close as possible to natural ride height (measurement you took before connecting to tow rig). Keep in mind it has been a while since I did all this so the # I am tossing out are just examples, not real numbers, but the design of the WDH is that the rear of the tow rig **must** have some squat and that the front bumper height of tow rig must raise a little.... there was a warning in my directions about not having squat in the rear. As far as any effective weight being distributed to the trailer axles, I'm not sure about this... haven't really given it any thought...
little_Jeep is offline  
post #19 of 47 Old 07-10-2012, 07:55 PM
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 2,333
I think WDH is a bunch of bunk. Seriously. You are working with what, 450 lb of tongue weight. And, it is levered a couple of feet against a 15 footlong chassis? Did anyone study physics in high school? If those gizmos could apply 100 pounds Of force to the front suspension I'd be shocked.

03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406 (gone)
wilson1010 is offline  
post #20 of 47 Old 07-10-2012, 08:03 PM
little_Jeep
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
I think WDH is a bunch of bunk. Seriously. You are working with what, 450 lb of tongue weight. And, it is levered a couple of feet against a 15 footlong chassis? Did anyone study physics in high school? If those gizmos could apply 100 pounds Of force to the front suspension I'd be shocked.
I have pulled my trailer without a WDH and I have pulled it with same tow rig, same load but with WDH, and I will guarantee you, there is a night & day difference. The WDH paid for itself on the very first trip. As far as I'm concerned, the WDH is a must have item for me and my setup.
little_Jeep is offline  
post #21 of 47 Old 07-10-2012, 08:45 PM
MPond
Registered User
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
I think WDH is a bunch of bunk. Seriously. You are working with what, 450 lb of tongue weight. And, it is levered a couple of feet against a 15 footlong chassis? Did anyone study physics in high school? If those gizmos could apply 100 pounds Of force to the front suspension I'd be shocked.
Yep - I studied Physics and high school & college, and you're missing several key principals here. During hard or emergency braking the trailer applies much more than it's tongue weight (can be 2-3 times the tongue weight, depending on the trailer) in downward force on the tow vehicle's hitch. The tow vehicle then pivots on the rear axle and unloads the front axle. So when you need them the most, you lose much of your steering and braking.

A good WDH fights those same forces; the more downward force on the load bars, the more rotational force, which means more transfer to the front axle of the tow vehicle. So my 1200 lb load bars can transfer upwards of 400 lbs onto the front axle of the tow vehicle and about 800 lbs onto the trailer axles. And that will make a huge difference in steering and braking at the moment that you need them most.

2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline  
post #22 of 47 Old 07-10-2012, 08:48 PM
MPond
Registered User
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
I think WDH is a bunch of bunk. Seriously. You are working with what, 450 lb of tongue weight. And, it is levered a couple of feet against a 15 footlong chassis? Did anyone study physics in high school? If those gizmos could apply 100 pounds Of force to the front suspension I'd be shocked.
And to clarify - the leverage is from the ball of the hitch to the rear axle, not just the length of the load bars. And the opposing leverage is only the distance between the axles, not the overall length of the truck.

2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline  
post #23 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 12:11 AM
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 2,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPond View Post
Yep - I studied Physics and high school & college, and you're missing several key principals here. During hard or emergency braking the trailer applies much more than it's tongue weight (can be 2-3 times the tongue weight, depending on the trailer) in downward force on the tow vehicle's hitch. The tow vehicle then pivots on the rear axle and unloads the front axle. So when you need them the most, you lose much of your steering and braking.

A good WDH fights those same forces; the more downward force on the load bars, the more rotational force, which means more transfer to the front axle of the tow vehicle. So my 1200 lb load bars can transfer upwards of 400 lbs onto the front axle of the tow vehicle and about 800 lbs onto the trailer axles. And that will make a huge difference in steering and braking at the moment that you need them most.

Why would there be downward force on the tongue in braking? In a hard stop, the front of the towing vehicle would dive and the rear would raise and the trailer would push the towing vehicle higher in the rear.

None of it make any sense.

And, for the record, 400 pounds of downward force on the front axle means nada. The kinetic energy being applied to the front axle in a hard stop is not even on that order of magnitude.

And, there is no rational explanation of forces that would transfer weight onto the trailer axles.

Believe what you want. These gadgets don't cost much so there is no harm done.

03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406 (gone)
wilson1010 is offline  
post #24 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 01:24 AM
MPond
Registered User
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park
Posts: 1,562
Wilson - you and I have debated this several times in several different threads, and the outcome is always the same. You are in the minority here, as many people have Weight Distribution Hitches and understand very quickly how effective they are. You claim to have an open mind, but you don't. You don't want to understand so you're never going to.

I could take the time to draw you a diagram explaining all of the forces involved, but you would dismiss it anyway without giving it any real consideration, so I'm not going to bother.

But I will pick apart your posts and explain why you're wrong, point by point. You'll ignore the facts, but it will be good information for others following along.

For example, you say
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
And, there is no rational explanation of forces that would transfer weight onto the trailer axles.
There's a very rational explanation about how the spring bars shift the tongue weight to the front axle of the tow vehicle and the trailer axles, and if I took the time to explain it to you, you'd just blow it off and argue some other point. But what the heck - I'll give it another try: You have to consider the chain pulling up on the rear of the spring bars that attach to the trailer's frame rails - that force has to go somewhere.


Since the trailer's frame rail is rigid to the rear (ignoring suspension) and pivots on the hitch ball toward the front, part of that force is carried by the trailer axles and part is translated into a rotational force (at the ball) shifting the truck's frame rails up and forward, and thus shifting part of the weight onto the front axle.

You also say
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
Why would there be downward force on the tongue in braking? In a hard stop, the front of the towing vehicle would dive and the rear would raise and the trailer would push the towing vehicle higher in the rear.
This too, is incorrect. The trailer will nose-dive during hard braking, just like the tow vehicle. Both nose-dive when their weight shifts forward. On a small trailer this won't have much affect on a heavier truck, but on a larger trailer it will. Plus, since the trailer has axles near the middle, rather than front and rear, the effect is much more dramatic because the weight will pivot over the axles and rotate forward, whereas the tow vehicle has axles front and rear so there's only the compression of the front suspension, no pivot effect.

If we were together (in person), I'd take you over to the truck scales and show you the numbers with the WDH connected and disconnected, and you'd see the difference in weights on the different axles of the truck and trailer. I did this several years back when I decided I wanted to know the fully loaded weight of my 26' enclosed cargo trailer.

Then I'd take you for a ride with the WDH and again without it, and you'd see the difference very quickly. I've done this a few times bringing my trailers home from the storage place (about 9 miles away) and sometimes I'll tow them home without using the WDH, and just drive slowly (and not on the highway). It really is a big difference.

But since I cannot show you in person, I've tried to explain it to you instead, and I hope to help others on the forums here at the same time.

I am speaking from first-hand experience with my flatbed trailer, my enclosed cargo trailer, my superlite toy hauler, my previous 28' Toy Hauler, and my 38' 5th wheel (granted no WDH on the 5th wheel, but the nose-dive dynamics are similar). WDH's are very effective, and once you've towed with a good WDH, you (well not YOU, but others) won't go back to towing without a WDH.

2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline  
post #25 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 06:16 AM
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 2,333
I appreciate your devotion to this gadget. I see the same enthusiasm for copper bracelets and colloidal silver.

Seriously, I do appreciate your efforts. And, I am committed to an open mind on the subject. I do appreciate your efforts and respect the honesty of your opinion.

For my part, I accept that there may be a reduction in "tongue to ball" weight which is itself a reasonable goal. But the market has spoken on WDH's in the fact that I almost never see them at an off road park. Well, they are as rare as an H1 Hummer there. I'd guess they have a 1% market saturation among off roaders. RV's are another story. But they are pulling rigs that cannot be easily balanced, front to rear like a truck on a trailer can. So, again, the tongue weight thing.

Continue the solicitation of the faithful and I willingly admit my minority status.

03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406 (gone)
wilson1010 is offline  
post #26 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 07:18 AM
little_Jeep
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,965
I just love when guys with slide rulers in their pockets argue Heck, you have to be a nerd to even know what a slide ruler is and you have to be really old to remember the days when nerds carried them.

As far as the WDH goes, I will guarantee you they work and as long as I have my current setup (tow rig, trailer & load), I'll never tow without the WDH. I suspect that you will find the majority of people who tow, will agree with me.
little_Jeep is offline  
post #27 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 07:44 AM
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 2,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by little_Jeep View Post
I just love when guys with slide rulers in their pockets argue Heck, you have to be a nerd to even know what a slide ruler is and you have to be really old to remember the days when nerds carried them.

As far as the WDH goes, I will guarantee you they work and as long as I have my current setup (tow rig, trailer & load), I'll never tow without the WDH. I suspect that you will find the majority of people who tow, will agree with me.
Actually, the majority of people that tow have never heard of a WDH much less agree with you. But, your guaranty is comforting. a lot more important than Mr. Pond's slide rule. Not! Actually, I find his explanation interesting. your "faith based" approach, not so much.

03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406 (gone)
wilson1010 is offline  
post #28 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 09:13 AM
MPond
Registered User
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
I appreciate your devotion to this gadget. I see the same enthusiasm for copper bracelets and colloidal silver.

Seriously, I do appreciate your efforts. And, I am committed to an open mind on the subject. I do appreciate your efforts and respect the honesty of your opinion.

For my part, I accept that there may be a reduction in "tongue to ball" weight which is itself a reasonable goal. But the market has spoken on WDH's in the fact that I almost never see them at an off road park. Well, they are as rare as an H1 Hummer there. I'd guess they have a 1% market saturation among off roaders. RV's are another story. But they are pulling rigs that cannot be easily balanced, front to rear like a truck on a trailer can. So, again, the tongue weight thing.

Continue the solicitation of the faithful and I willingly admit my minority status.
Unfortunately, this is your typical pattern of replies: you make bold statements (like the post from yesterday), and when challenged you ignore the facts presented and change your argument. Yesterday your post was about the forces - "no rational explanation of forces..." and "downward force on the tongue in braking...". When challenged on those points, you ignore them entirely and change your argument to sarcasm and market penetration.

And when it comes to market penetration, you're not looking at the bigger picture, only Jeeps on flatbed trailers. And that's just silly. YOU may not see WDH's that often at your local offroad park, but I see them every time I go out to play with the Jeep or the Sand Rail, on 4 out of 5 rigs (both Jeeps and RVs). A holiday weekend in Glamis will draw 50,000 people, and if 4 out of 5 of them are using a WDH, I think that's pretty good market penetration.

Granted, a Jeep on a flatbed is one of the easiest loads to balance for tongue weight, but you should always have +-10% of the gross trailer weight on the tongue; lighter than that and the trailer will induce sway on a light-duty pickup. So a 5,000 lb Jeep on 1,000 lb trailer should have approx. 600 lbs of tongue weight. For a 1/2-ton pickup (as mentioned in the original post of this thread), you're going to be at or over the truck's ratings (hitch rating without WDH, gross payload, rear axle weight rating, etc...). If the OP wanted to haul anything in the bed, especially something substantial such as a camper, he'd definitely be over those ratings and need a WDH to offload some of the weight to the front axle.

Next you're likely tell us that we can ignore the truck's axle/hitch/gross weight ratings as you have in the past, and that's just bad advice as well.

2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline  
post #29 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 09:17 AM
MPond
Registered User
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
Actually, the majority of uninformed people that tow have never heard of a WDH...
Here - I fixed that for you...

The majority of people out here in the West that tow are aware of and use WDHs.

2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline  
post #30 of 47 Old 07-11-2012, 09:25 AM
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 2,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPond View Post
Here - I fixed that for you...

The majority of people out here in the West that tow are aware of and use WDHs.
Cute.

When this came up last time, I counted the trailers in the parking lot at Haspin Acres, Laurel Indiana where there were easily 50 trailers in the parking lot and found all of ONE WDH and it was on an old Airstream some guys were camping in.

So whether you are right or wrong, no one much in the off roading community in the midwest agrees with you. And that guy from Louisville, if he wheels at Harlan or Big Rock would know that.

03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406 (gone)
wilson1010 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Jeep Forums Replies Last Post
where 2 get heavy duty hitch (class 4/500 lb. tongue weight) for an 87 wrangler YJ? submaniac Trailers & Towing 7 08-30-2015 08:00 PM
Weight Distribution hitch question? 1398653 Trailers & Towing 21 04-11-2012 04:27 PM
Weight distributing hitch capacity options cincyjeeprs Trailers & Towing 2 03-12-2011 10:24 AM
What type of weight distributing hitch? JeepRocks86 Trailers & Towing 5 06-25-2007 05:27 PM
Weight & Distribution Hitch ? JeepRocks86 Trailers & Towing 6 09-18-2006 03:00 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome