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Unread 01-09-2014, 06:56 PM   #31
Ross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
All you can do is write your legislators. Every state has waiver and/or assumption of risk.
risk but not negligence

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Schitzangiggles: We used to teach our children to fight evil, now we teach them that fighting is evil.

2001 TJ, 33 trxus MTs , W, locked, belly up, some armor.

"If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time." Zig Ziglar
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Unread 01-09-2014, 07:11 PM   #32
MikeHoncho88
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Ross, you are on your own discussion right now. You are talking about blatant negligence. Every one else is talking about reasonable risk. Just let it go man. The waiver should work, as long as you were reasonably cautious and competent in your efforts to help someone out. If you are blatantly incompetent and foolhardy in your efforts, you could be called into court for that. I think we can assume most jeepers possess a small degree of common sense and mechanical ability. But then you never know.
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Unread 01-09-2014, 07:23 PM   #33
wilson1010
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Ross:

The way "negligence" works is that you have to start with a "duty of care."

If you skip a stone across the pond, you only have a duty of care not to hit that scuba diver if his presence is reasonably foreseeable. And, if he wants to swim around under water in a pond where people skip stones all the time, he can be said to have assumed the risk.

And, for sure, if before he gets in the water someone tells him, "look, we skip stones here all the time and we can't be watching out for your sorry self" and he signs a waiver and says its ok, he has waived the "duty of care" that you would otherwise owe him, then when he gets whacked with a rock by someone who was clearly negligent, too bad. His problem.
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Unread 01-09-2014, 09:12 PM   #34
thantos858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_bydesign;19256802[B
]that being said try to avoid using tow staps or snatch straps with hooks on them...[/B] they to become a great way to smash windows and someones head... they was a guy how was killed with one not to long ago down here in S FL... when the hook let go and came thru the back window of his truck and struck him in da head... common sense is your friend... stupitiy is not
There is a huge difference between a tow strap and snatch strap. Tow straps are made for pulling not a jerking motion. A snatch strap will stretch and contract which is how it works. A properly cared for tow strap even with hooks will do its job and not hurt you. I have yet to see a snatch strap with a hook. When doing any recovery always use a blanket or something like it and place it over the strap, cable etc. to be safer and have people stand clear.

I personally have a chain that I use for a anchor point because rocks tend to destroy straps and it has hooks on it. All my gear is properly sized or oversize for my rigs and kept out of the elements unless its being used.

As for hooking up to a stranger not worth it in my opinion wavier or not. I will help friends and family out but only the ones that I trust wont turn around and sue me.
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Unread 01-09-2014, 09:58 PM   #35
E6Sapper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post

Now you're talking.

And, here is what it should say, more or less:

In consideration of the services of _____________________ in recovering my stuck vehicle, as a good Samaritan and volunteer ("Volunteer") and not for compensation, I do hereby release and agree to hold harmless and indemnify the VOLUNTEER, from any and all claims, actions, damages, liabilities, costs, or expenses (including reasonable attorneys fees), and without any limitation whatsoever, whether consisting of personal injury, property damage or death, that do or may result in any way from services provided by them, whether such injuries of any kind or nature are caused by their negligence or not, assuming for myself any and all responsibility and liability for same. Further, I agree that I will not sue any volunteer. I SPECIFICALLY AGREE THAT BEFORE PARTICIPATING I WILL INSPECT ALL AREAS INVOLVED FULLY REALIZING, ACCEPTING, AND UNDERSTANDING THAT vehicle recovery IS INHERENTLY RISKY AND DANGEROUS, AND CARRIES SIGNIFICANT RISK OF PERSONAL INJURY AND PROPERTY DAMAGE TO ME AND OTHERS.

This release and indemnity is binding upon my heirs, administrators, executors and personal representatives, and I herewith affirm my free and willing intent to execute it, acknowledging a complete understanding of its terms and conditions and the totality of its effect, and the waiver of any rights that I would otherwise have had, had this agreement not been executed. I warrant that I am the owner of the vehicle described below, or the owners representative. I hereby waive any right of subrogation on behalf of my insurer(s) and on behalf of any insurer of the vehicle described below and agree that no claim may be brought against the Volunteers by any such insurer by way of subrogation.

I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTOOD THE RELEASE AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT ABOVE.
You really don't have to worry too much about issues involving liability when pulling people out people as long as you don't charge a fee. You can except donations though. You should be protected by the Good Samaritan law.
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Unread 01-10-2014, 03:57 AM   #36
wilson1010
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Originally Posted by E6Sapper View Post
You really don't have to worry too much about issues involving liability when pulling people out people as long as you don't charge a fee. You can except donations though. You should be protected by the Good Samaritan law.
The Devil is always in the details. In South Carolina, the Good Samaritan Law only applies to aid to the victim. Not his car.

South Carolina Good Samaritan Law

SECTION 15-1-310.

Liability for emergency care rendered at scene of accident.

Any person, who in good faith gratuitously renders emergency care at the scene of an accident or emergency to the victim thereof, shall not be liable for any civil damages for any personal injury as a result of any act or omission by such person in rendering the emergency care or as a result of any act or failure to act to provide or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured person, except acts or omissions amounting to gross negligence or wilful or wanton misconduct.
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Unread 01-10-2014, 07:31 AM   #37
Ross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeHoncho88 View Post
Ross, you are on your own discussion right now. You are talking about blatant negligence. Every one else is talking about reasonable risk. Just let it go man. The waiver should work, as long as you were reasonably cautious and competent in your efforts to help someone out. If you are blatantly incompetent and foolhardy in your efforts, you could be called into court for that. I think we can assume most jeepers possess a small degree of common sense and mechanical ability. But then you never know.
A "small degree of common sense" is dangereous.

Back on topic. There is no good way to recovery a vehicle with the same gear we use to recovery out Jeeps unless that vehicle has similar designed recovery points.

The OP asked. "my tow hitch or bumper, but what about other cars without two hitches or metal bumpers?" The OP is asking how to recover a car without damaging it. Unless there are points specifically designed for recovery there is a chance you will damage the other vehicle if you start yanking on it.

I am saying it is not a good idea to attach a strap to even a bumper ever for recovery. Most bumpers are mounted on a "shock" that is designed to help absorb a hit and not to be pulled. Recover points have to be mounted to the frame. If you run a strap under a car with a plastic bumper cover you will probably damage that cover and possible whatever you hook to. Thoose little hooks under many cars are not recovery points.
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Schitzangiggles: We used to teach our children to fight evil, now we teach them that fighting is evil.

2001 TJ, 33 trxus MTs , W, locked, belly up, some armor.

"If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time." Zig Ziglar
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Unread 01-10-2014, 07:41 AM   #38
Ross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E6Sapper View Post
You really don't have to worry too much about issues involving liability when pulling people out people as long as you don't charge a fee. You can except donations though. You should be protected by the Good Samaritan law.
That doesn't cover everything everywhere.
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Schitzangiggles: We used to teach our children to fight evil, now we teach them that fighting is evil.

2001 TJ, 33 trxus MTs , W, locked, belly up, some armor.

"If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time." Zig Ziglar
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Unread 01-10-2014, 08:26 AM   #39
MikeHoncho88
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No one, least of all me, was arguing or disputing that recovery should only be attempted if a proper recovery point is available. If you go back and read your posts, including all the ones you deleted, that was never in question. You just seemed to get hung up on the idea of the waiver, and totally hijacked the thread. Now, with your permission, maybe we can get back on the topic, which is vehicle recovery.
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Unread 01-10-2014, 08:34 AM   #40
Ross
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double post
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Schitzangiggles: We used to teach our children to fight evil, now we teach them that fighting is evil.

2001 TJ, 33 trxus MTs , W, locked, belly up, some armor.

"If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time." Zig Ziglar
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Unread 01-10-2014, 08:35 AM   #41
MikeHoncho88
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Glad I have never and would never do that then. Are you done?
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Unread 01-10-2014, 08:37 AM   #42
Ross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeHoncho88 View Post
No one, least of all me, was arguing or disputing that recovery should only be attempted if a proper recovery point is available. If you go back and read your posts, including all the ones you deleted, that was never in question. You just seemed to get hung up on the idea of the waiver, and totally hijacked the thread. Now, with your permission, maybe we can get back on the topic, which is vehicle recovery.
Then if you know and understand this and hook to a vehicle that doesn’t have recovery points designed for the equipment you are using you are then negligent, regardless of a waiver. Normal cars do not have recovery points designed for winching or strapping like we do in off roading.
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Schitzangiggles: We used to teach our children to fight evil, now we teach them that fighting is evil.

2001 TJ, 33 trxus MTs , W, locked, belly up, some armor.

"If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time." Zig Ziglar
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Unread 01-10-2014, 08:42 AM   #43
MikeHoncho88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Leave them for the professional recovery companies that are appropriately equipped to handle it and insured to protect themselves. This is why there is more than one type of tow truck. If it was always as easy as finding what seems to be a good chuck of metal and hooking up a strap or cable there would only be only one type of tow truck.
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No note, contract, or whatever can release you of your liability. If you are negligent you are negligent regardless of what you have written or signed. You cannot release yourself of negligence and no contract is above the law. If this were the case our courts would be allot less busy then they are. Even if you aren’t negligent and you damage some bodies else vehicles they can still try to go after you. This is why tow services have special equipment and carry specific insurance for. It isn’t always as simple as attaching a strap or cable.

I will only recover friends or family I trust (that have legit recovery points) other than that I will make a phone call for you, I won't even let you borrow my phone.

Last year I had a person flag me down and expected me to winch them out of the ditch. It was a larger 4 door crown vic or whatever our state troopers drive. As I was arguing with the drive telling them I would not pull them out a state trooper pulled up. The state trooper’s car had been outfitted with a recovery point because of issue with that type of rear frame assembly that the state had encountered in the past recovering their own vehicles. After that I left.
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No, limit your actions and you possibility of problems so you never need a lawyer. Unfortunately when you extend a helping hand there are those out there that will return the favor in a not so nice manner.

Every action has consequences, not all are bad but why take the chance.
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Are saying you can construct a legit contract that can protect people for their own negligence or deny somebody the ability to call another into court?
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You cannot write a contract that will hold up in court that violates law.
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If the University of MO knowingly causes harm or is negligent in their responsibility to one of those participants and they are harmed the Univ of MO or it representative will be held responsible, contract or not.

I have rentals in MO and MO law is good when it comes to common sense but even then I could not have a contract forcing my tenant to deal drugs out of my property. If I knowing create a living condition that is unsafe and somebody gets hurt I am still responsible regardless of what the contract states.

If the contract violates law how could it be enforced? The court is not going to order anybody to do anything against the law, even it if is written out in a contract. If there is negligence and or laws have been broken the court can hold the guilty responsible regardless of what your contract says.
NO contract makes you above the law.
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Originally Posted by Ross View Post
risk but not negligence
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Originally Posted by Ross View Post
A "small degree of common sense" is dangereous.

Back on topic. There is no good way to recovery a vehicle with the same gear we use to recovery out Jeeps unless that vehicle has similar designed recovery points.

The OP asked. "my tow hitch or bumper, but what about other cars without two hitches or metal bumpers?" The OP is asking how to recover a car without damaging it. Unless there are points specifically designed for recovery there is a chance you will damage the other vehicle if you start yanking on it.

I am saying it is not a good idea to attach a strap to even a bumper ever for recovery. Most bumpers are mounted on a "shock" that is designed to help absorb a hit and not to be pulled. Recover points have to be mounted to the frame. If you run a strap under a car with a plastic bumper cover you will probably damage that cover and possible whatever you hook to. Thoose little hooks under many cars are not recovery points.
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Originally Posted by Ross View Post
That doesn't cover everything everywhere.
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Then if you know and understand this and hook to a vehicle that doesn’t have recovery points designed for the equipment you are using you are then negligent, regardless of a waiver. Normal cars do not have recovery points designed for winching or strapping like we do in off roading.
OK we got it Ross. Are you done now? You've got almost half the posts in the thread playing "Forum Lawyer". Now a mod is going to have to come in here and clean this up.
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Unread 01-10-2014, 08:47 AM   #44
Ross
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Originally Posted by MikeHoncho88 View Post
OK we got it Ross. Are you done now? You've got almost half the posts in the thread playing "Forum Lawyer". Now a mod is going to have to come in here and clean this up.
Nope, the only good advice we can give the OP about recovery here is there is not enough information to tell how to do it so it best not to do it. As far as a waiver, you only need that if there is a possibility of you screwing up. Why would you take the chance damaging or screwing up some bodies else’s property, why would you advice anybody else to do the same?
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Schitzangiggles: We used to teach our children to fight evil, now we teach them that fighting is evil.

2001 TJ, 33 trxus MTs , W, locked, belly up, some armor.

"If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time." Zig Ziglar
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Unread 01-10-2014, 10:48 PM   #45
TrailJ
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I had a bmw that needed a tow. I didn't have the screw in eye that screws in the rear bumper. The tow truck driver thought it would be ok to put the flat bed winch hook on the rear suspension. Ripped it right off. They were cool and fixed it, but the alloy suspension just wasn't able to handle sideways pressure. So it's really easy to break things, be carefuland add had been said only use correct pull points and setups like screw eyes on modern cars.
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