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Unread 09-13-2012, 08:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
Wringing your hands over a few extra pounds?

I have had to brake in every kind of curve and every kind of situation. I have probably towed with more vehicles of any kind than you and your father have owned combined, son. Your theories are always intersting, but, not real world helpful. Back to the books.
Another typical response from Wilson - no facts, but lots of nonsense and noise.

Wilson - I rather enjoy your posts as they're always the same combination of ignorance and bad advice, and they always follow the same formula: if Wilson hasn't seen it, it must not exist, since he's seen and done it all. Ignorance really is bliss, eh?

Just for fun, I'll explain where you're wrong, yet again...

A few extra pounds? Towing a 4,000 lb. Jeep behind a 7,000 lb. Suburban adds nearly 60% more weight. But hey - 60% is insignificant, right?

Flat towing a Jeep with a light-duty (2500 or 3500) truck is certainly doable (I do it myself quite often), but your argument that it doesn't increase your stopping distance in just ludicrous.

But here's the rub: Every time you and I disagree on a topic, you feel the need to try to make jokes about me - not the facts of the argument - but me personally. There's a reason for that - you have no facts, no information to back up your inane statements. I'm sure you have a good deal of experience, but you're not the only one. You really have no clue how how much experience I have, and it's quite funny that you think otherwise.

I play this game with you because I find it amusing, and I hope to provide valuable information to offset your misinformation at the same time.

Note to everyone else: This is where Wilson will come back, ignore everything I've just said, and make some other wild remark, because yet again, he has no facts or common sense to back up his opinion.

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Unread 09-14-2012, 01:40 AM   #17
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There is a lot more to towing than emergency stopping. Most sensible drivers have never made a full balls to the wall stop with a towed vehicle because they practice defensive driving. Much more important than full on stopping are emergency handling maneuvers resulting from actions of other drivers that cannot be avoided. An inadequate tow vehicle with great brakes is no help and will surely be in greater trouble. This is an interesting technical article. But, flat towing requires an adequate rig. A brake gadget no matter how clever is not a substitute for the right tow rig.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 11:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
There is a lot more to towing than emergency stopping. Most sensible drivers have never made a full balls to the wall stop with a towed vehicle because they practice defensive driving. Much more important than full on stopping are emergency handling maneuvers resulting from actions of other drivers that cannot be avoided. An inadequate tow vehicle with great brakes is no help and will surely be in greater trouble. This is an interesting technical article. But, flat towing requires an adequate rig. A brake gadget no matter how clever is not a substitute for the right tow rig.
This is a point we actually agree on - there is no substitute for the right tow rig.

But we're not talking about Medium Duty trucks like your Volvo or my Bus. We're talking about 3/4-ton and 1-ton trucks and SUVs. I consider my 3/4-ton Suburban and 1-ton dually adequate for towing my Jeep, but even those trucks will be affected by the weight of a Jeep being flat towed behind it, and that weight will increase stopping distance.

Look - I'm not saying people don't do it or shouldn't do it - I do it myself. I'm just objecting to your statement that it doesn't increase stopping distance. It does, and people should be aware of that. It's up to each person to decide whether their rig needs auxillary brakes on the Jeep being flat towed or not.

And with regards to defensive driving: Defensive driving is a good practice that we should all follow, especially when towing. But no matter how defensive your driving style is, things happen that you cannot predict. A few years back I was on the freeway here in L.A., towing in the right lane at about 50 MPH. As I came around a curve in the road, a woman who was stopped on the shoulder suddenly pulled out directly in front of me without warning, and without speeding up. Becasue of the curve there was no way to see it coming, and there was too much traffic to my left to move over. My only choice was a "balls to the wall stop", as you put it. If I hadn't had brakes on my trailer I never would have been able to stop in time, even though I was towing with a 1-ton Silverado Dually with great brakes. Had this been the Jeep without brakes, I might not have stopped in time.

Hard braking should be part of what you described as "emergency handling maneuvers resulting from actions of other drivers that cannot be avoided". There are many scenarios where braking is the only option; this is just one example that I experience first-hand.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 11:41 AM   #19
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I have resisted getting into the technicals of this discussion because that usually does not persuade the faithful, but if you start with the proposition that a fully loaded pickup and an empty pickup all stop within a few feet of each other from 60mph (I mean 2 feet to 6 feet depending on the brand) I think you can see that if one adds a few more pounds, it is not really that big a deal. Don't believe it? Check it out. I bet you are surprised that it just doesn't matter if your pickup is loaded or unloaded.

On the other hand, brake control from a set of 4 big tires connected only by a tow bar to your rig, may be a little less precise than one would want. What do you do when a stop is hard enough to lock up the towed rig brakes and the towing rig is not going in a straight line? Thank you, I'll take my chances with a competent rig with ABS instead of some mechanism pulling my rig from the rear.

I do like the elegance of the setup above, however.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 04:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
I have resisted getting into the technicals of this discussion because that usually does not persuade the faithful, but if you start with the proposition that a fully loaded pickup and an empty pickup all stop within a few feet of each other from 60mph (I mean 2 feet to 6 feet depending on the brand) I think you can see that if one adds a few more pounds, it is not really that big a deal. Don't believe it? Check it out. I bet you are surprised that it just doesn't matter if your pickup is loaded or unloaded.

On the other hand, brake control from a set of 4 big tires connected only by a tow bar to your rig, may be a little less precise than one would want. What do you do when a stop is hard enough to lock up the towed rig brakes and the towing rig is not going in a straight line? Thank you, I'll take my chances with a competent rig with ABS instead of some mechanism pulling my rig from the rear.

I do like the elegance of the setup above, however.
Your starting proposition is wrong - a loaded truck with 4000 - 5000 lbs behind it (approx. range of Jeeps being flat-towed) doesn't take only 2-6 feet more to stop from 60 MPH. I know this from experience, but I'm sure you need more evidence...

Diesel Power Magazine did a comparizon of 3/4-ton trucks last year, and one of the things they measured was 60-0 braking, with and without a 5,000 lb. trailer:
2011 Diesel Truck of the Year

Here are their testing results with a 5,000 lb trailer:
Ford F-250:
60-0 Unladen 148.6 feet
60-0 Towing 201.1 feet

GMC Sierra 2500:
60-0 Unladen 147.3 feet
60-0 Towing 214.3 feet

Dodge Ram 2500:
60-0 Unladen 152.1 feet
60-0 Towing 201.1 feet

That's approx. 50 feet longer with 5,000 lbs. behind the truck, or 33% longer stopping distance.

That's a far cry from your claim that we're only talking about a few feet difference.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 06:44 PM   #21
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And, where is the test that shows that the 48 foot difference would be one foot less with brakes on the towed rig? Without that, your statistics are meaningless. How much less would it be? Surely you don't contend that the towed vehicle brakes will be more than a small fraction of the difference?

EDIT:

Uh Oh! You forgot to take into account that the truck described here is an F150 (isn't that the predicate for the aux brake device?) and we are talking about an F250 or better. Seems like there is a difference.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 11:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
And, where is the test that shows that the 48 foot difference would be one foot less with brakes on the towed rig? Without that, your statistics are meaningless. How much less would it be? Surely you don't contend that the towed vehicle brakes will be more than a small fraction of the difference?

EDIT:

Uh Oh! You forgot to take into account that the truck described here is an F150 (isn't that the predicate for the aux brake device?) and we are talking about an F250 or better. Seems like there is a difference.
Another typical response from Wilson... when he can't win his argument with facts, he changes his argument. Before his argument was that flat towing a Jeep would only increase the stopping distance by 2-6 feet. Now that he's been shown to be wrong, he's admitted that it's approx. 50 feet and changed his argument to "auxillary brakes aren't proven to be effective".

And arguing that I'm looking at an F250 instead of an F150 is nothing but misdirection. If the magazine had tested an F150 the effect would probably have been worse since 250/2500 trucks tend to have better braking than 150/1500 trucks.

Wilson - my only objection all along was to your statement that it doesn't increase stopping distance, which I've shown that it does.

When it comes to the effectiveness of auxillary brakes for flat towing Jeeps, you and I seem to agree. I question the effectiveness of the various systems on the market, but that was not what we were disagreeing about previously.
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Unread 09-15-2012, 06:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by MPond View Post
Another typical response from Wilson... when he can't win his argument with facts, he changes his argument. Before his argument was that flat towing a Jeep would only increase the stopping distance by 2-6 feet. Now that he's been shown to be wrong, he's admitted that it's approx. 50 feet and changed his argument to "auxillary brakes aren't proven to be effective".
No, you have to go back and read it again. What i said was that a loaded truck only requires a few more feet to stop than an unloaded one. It does 2-6 feet. Look it up. You postulate, pointlessly, that a truck with a trailer takes around 40+ feet longer to stop from 60mph than one empty with no trailer.

My comment, was that nowhere is there the first speck of evidence that a trailer with brakes makes a significant dent in that 40+ feet. Could one speculate that a trailer with some braking would end up in between the empty truck with no trailer and the loaded one with no brakes? Perhaps. But not from what you offered.
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Unread 09-15-2012, 10:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
No, you have to go back and read it again. What i said was that a loaded truck only requires a few more feet to stop than an unloaded one. It does 2-6 feet. Look it up. You postulate, pointlessly, that a truck with a trailer takes around 40+ feet longer to stop from 60mph than one empty with no trailer.

My comment, was that nowhere is there the first speck of evidence that a trailer with brakes makes a significant dent in that 40+ feet. Could one speculate that a trailer with some braking would end up in between the empty truck with no trailer and the loaded one with no brakes? Perhaps. But not from what you offered.
Go back and read it again? Okay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
...My K2500 Suburban towed an XJ for years and I never one time experienced any wiggle on braking or any diminished stopping distance. Same for the various F250's I've had...
Those are your words... Your first contribution to this thread was to say that the brake controller that the OP had created was a "Nice technical exercise" but you "could not imagine a need for it" because flat towing did not cause wiggle or increase your stopping distance.

That's the point I was objecting to then, and the one I'm still objecting to now. You can try to spin it any way you want, but that's what you said.

You go on to make other points, and some of them you and I agree on. But that's not what this argument was about. It sounds like you are the one that needs to go back and read it again.

The bottom line is this: Flat towing a Jeep does increase stopping distance, as does towing heavy trailers. Trailer brakes are effective in offsetting that, but there is some question about whether auxiliary brakes in Jeeps are as effective. The OP has made an interesting device to improve on what is commercially available for flat towing, and that's pretty cool.
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Unread 09-16-2012, 08:57 AM   #25
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See, your problem, Pond, is that you don't read critically. I said that I had not experienced any diminished stopping distance or wiggle, which is true and correct. Elsewhere, I allowed that it could be that there is longer stopping distance. But it is clear that this only happens at the extreme fringe of emergency stopping, which I don't do because I drive my tow rig safely. Could 40 extra feet save my bacon in a freak accident? I doubt it. That last 40 feet, two car lengths, the rig is only going 10 mph or what not. Much ado about nothing, IMO.

You just have to slow down, Pond, and read every word as though the writer actually intends what he writes, not what you want him to have said. I meant what I said and it was totally correct. You just wanted to hear something else.
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Unread 09-16-2012, 11:50 AM   #26
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See, your problem, Pond, is that you don't read critically. I said that I had not experienced any diminished stopping distance or wiggle, which is true and correct. Elsewhere, I allowed that it could be that there is longer stopping distance. But it is clear that this only happens at the extreme fringe of emergency stopping, which I don't do because I drive my tow rig safely. Could 40 extra feet save my bacon in a freak accident? I doubt it. That last 40 feet, two car lengths, the rig is only going 10 mph or what not. Much ado about nothing, IMO.

You just have to slow down, Pond, and read every word as though the writer actually intends what he writes, not what you want him to have said. I meant what I said and it was totally correct. You just wanted to hear something else.
That's some serious spin that you're trying to put on it. But it just doesn't hold water when you contradict yourself like this... Before you said that you "have had to brake in every kind of curve and every kind of situation", but now you say "that this only happens at the extreme fringe of emergency stopping, which I don't do because I drive my tow rig safely". So which is it? Have you been in that situation or not? Do you know first-hand what happens in that scenario or not? You can't have it both ways.

If you re-read "every word" of your initial post as though you actually intended what you wrote, it begs the question: What were you trying to contribute to the discussion with that post? It sure looks like you're saying that these brake controllers aren't necessary because you won't experience wiggle or longer braking distances if you tow with a properly sized rig such as your K2500 and F250.

That's what I disagreed with, and that's what I've already shown to be incorrect, to the tune of 33% longer stopping distance (approx 150' vs approx 200') when towing 5,000 lbs with an 250/2500 series truck.
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Unread 09-28-2012, 04:06 PM   #27
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To Put the Thread back on Topic and summarize a bit.

Towing with an adequately sized tow rig is the best option. Adequately sized is up for debate. Most F150/chevy 1500's are rated for around 7000-10000 lbs trail towing depending on engine size. I think most would agree that a CJ (what I was towing) has a tow weight of around 3500 lbs, well with the cabability with a modern 1/2 ton truck. Some argue that a larger/heavier vehicle the braking is improved. Agreed it probably is because the weight ratio between the towed vs tower has increased.

As far as the "loaded vs unloaded" and stopping distance. There are 2 types of loads that have not been addressed well. Loaded aka pallet of concrete in pickup bed, vs pallet of concrete on trailer without brakes. If the concrete is in the bed of the pickup the tires on the truck increase the contact area patch area Lets call this 100sq inches for argument sakes, which in turn gives more traction, and the more energy required to lockup the axles. Large brakes let the system exert more stopping force on the axle. When on a trailer without brakes the contact area for the tires is say 75 sq inches, which is 25% less area and less energy for the brakes to exert before the tire brakes traction. (this is why we air down the tires when off roading to increase the contact area to increase traction and grip)

So same load same weight but the vehicle with the trailer has a longer stopping distance. You put brakes on that trailer and have them adequately the amount of sq inches that is helping you stop increases to say 100 again you can now stop in approximately the same distance.

It can be sumarized to brakeable contact area with ground/weight of vehicle.

To add a little more info since I started the thread when I said "my truck wiggling all around" This was in a construction area out in southern california. People were merging maybe 100 yds ahead of me, someone got stupid and everyone slammed on their brakes, Since I had a lot of space in front of me I stopped in adequate length. When hitting the brakes that hard I believe I took my tow bar from having it being slightly pitched down to tow vehicle to having the tow bar pitch slightly up. Since jeeps inertia wanted to keep moving foward this in turn slightly raised the back end of the truck effectively reducing the weight on the rear axle. This made the ABS system do what its supposed to do, keep your vehicle from skidding and maintain steering control the vehicle.

To help with handling I also lowered my tow bar mount aprox 1.5 inches to make a more downward slope. This helps transfer a SLIGHT amount of weight from the jeep to the truck when stopping, but I dont think its more than a few hundred pounds. In order to have a more solid, similar as witout jeep stopping distance is why I made this braking system. Its basically the same as a brake buddy or blue ox braking system that is marketed more toward the RV crowd, but in the spirit of JEEPS its DIY.
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Unread 10-10-2012, 11:38 AM   #28
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anyone use a driveline quick disconnect?

just bought a CJ8 and want to flat tow it
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Unread 10-10-2012, 04:31 PM   #29
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The driveline is really easy to have a "manual" disconnect. All you need is a 5/16 socket/wrench and undo 4 bolts and you are done. Its about a 5 minute project.

I cant really see how a quick disconnect would make it much faster to me it seems that getting everything lined back up after a tow would be just as hard as unstrapping the ujoints.
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