hitch rating question - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > General > Trailers & Towing > hitch rating question

ECGS Black Friday Sale!!1993-1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee Stainless Steel Exhaust Mani1996-1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee Header Panel

Reply
Unread 11-30-2011, 01:28 AM   #16
MPond
Web Wheeler
 
MPond's Avatar
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 1,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinCummins View Post
The is more than one reason to rate the hitch this way.

First, without WD you have a max rating of 500 tongue weight. keeping the load balanced makes for a trailer that pulls horrible. If your motoring along with a near balanced trailer and have to slam on the brakes and swerve, you will get thrown around - and possibly jacknife. You need proper tongue weight to keep the trailer tracking nice.

Second is the shear issue. Too much tongue weight acts as a lever. This lifts the nose of the vehicle causing poor braking and steering, but also puts strain on the hitch. It can break the hitch from the rear and forward.
I completely agree with this. In fact, let me take it one step further:

I've heard many times that "experts suggest your tongue weight should be 9-15% of your gross trailer weight", but I've never known the source of that. Tonight I did a number of searches, and while I didn't find the source of that number, I did find hundreds are article stating the same thing (or 10-15%), including:
Since 9-15% (or 10-15%) appears to be the the recommended range, I'm going to go with that for the sake of discussion.

If the OP (muddmonkey) has a trailer and jeep combo in the 4.5k-5.5k range, then let's assume the 5k lb middle ground - he'll have to have the Jeep and trailer weighted for more exact figures. Assuming it's not higher then he'd be right at the non-WD rating of his hitch.

With 5k lbs of trailer, muddmonkey should have 450-750 lbs of tongue weight. Since his hitch is rated for no more than 500 lbs of tongue weight, he'd have to be able to balance the trailer between 450-500 lbs, which may or may not be enough tongue weight to make the trailer track well on the highway, depending on the trailer's design itself.

If it were me, I'd get the trailer & Jeep weight before making any decisions. And if it's close, I'd still err on the side of caution and either get the WD hitch or an upgraded receiver. Neither one is terribly expensive.

I looked up your 1994 Chevy 2500 w/8' bed, and Valley offers a class 5 hitch - model 82490. There's one available on Amazon for $170 - http://www.amazon.com/Valley-82490-Class-Receiver-Hitch/dp/B000CB8EF0. Valley says that hitch is rated for 10k lbs with WD, and 12k lbs with WD, although Amazon shows it as 9k/12k, but either would be plenty for your application.

Or a drawtite WD hitch setup can be found in the $250 range here: Drawtite Pro Series

__________________
2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 11-30-2011, 05:11 AM   #17
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 1,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by muddmonky View Post
on my truck i have a hitch (came with it when i bought it) that says 10k lbs with weight distribution and 5k lbs without WD.

does that mean that my hitch is only rated to carry a 5k lb trailer on the ball with out weight distribution??

OP, You absolutely have no problem with the XJ on your trailer. There are a lot of off roaders in South Florida, Just go out to an off road event and look around. You won't find anyone with a class 3/4 hitch with those stupid weight distribution bars on their trailer. You'll see. Ask some of the older guys who actually trail their rigs to the events. What you are hearing above is what comes from too many warning labels written by lawyers. In 40 years of trailering everything under God's green earth I have never one time seen a hitch failure. I have never had one of my rigs "dive" or "swerve" from a loaded trailer. I regularly towed a trailer and rig two times the weight of your set up with a class 3/4 hitch. The whole thing is set up for 10,000 pounds and you could exceed that without a bit of problem. Your rig and trailer weigh 6000 tops. Those bars do nothing to increase the strength of any part in you hitch or the trailer tongue. they only serve to reduce tongue weight which you can easily do by balancing your rig.

Just ask some of your local guys who know what they are doing and you will toss that crap in the scrap pile.
__________________
03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406
wilson1010 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 11-30-2011, 02:57 PM   #18
MPond
Web Wheeler
 
MPond's Avatar
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 1,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
OP, You absolutely have no problem with the XJ on your trailer. There are a lot of off roaders in South Florida, Just go out to an off road event and look around. You won't find anyone with a class 3/4 hitch with those stupid weight distribution bars on their trailer. You'll see. Ask some of the older guys who actually trail their rigs to the events. What you are hearing above is what comes from too many warning labels written by lawyers. In 40 years of trailering everything under God's green earth I have never one time seen a hitch failure. I have never had one of my rigs "dive" or "swerve" from a loaded trailer. I regularly towed a trailer and rig two times the weight of your set up with a class 3/4 hitch. The whole thing is set up for 10,000 pounds and you could exceed that without a bit of problem. Your rig and trailer weigh 6000 tops. Those bars do nothing to increase the strength of any part in you hitch or the trailer tongue. they only serve to reduce tongue weight which you can easily do by balancing your rig.

Just ask some of your local guys who know what they are doing and you will toss that crap in the scrap pile.
That's funny because there is no such thing as a "class 3/4" hitch - hitches are rated as class I, II, III, IV, and V, although class V has not yet been adopted by SAE. It's doubtful that wilson1010 even knows what he has.

muddmonkey - you have a 3/4 ton truck (aka 2500), and a class IV hitch. And from the info you've provided, it is not rated to carry 6000 lbs without WD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
Those bars do nothing to increase the strength of any part in you hitch or the trailer tongue.
That's actually the first acurate thing that wilson1010 has said, although he misunderstands why... WD bars are not designed to strengthen the hitch or tongue; they're designed to keep the forces that the trailer is placing on the receiver & truck working in the direction that the hitch receiver is strongest, and distribute them more evenly over the whole truck, rather than just at the rear. This improves steering & breaking stability by keeping the front suspension of the tow-vehicle properly loaded, and prevents the hitch receiver from be subjected to forces in abnormal directions which could cause it to become overloaded and fail in emergency situations.

Think of it this way: if you have to swerve to avoid an accident, the forces that are applied to your hitch receiver change very rapidly. At the moment before you swerve you may only have 500 lbs of tongue weight, or downward force on your hitch receiver. But as you swerve and apply the breaks heavily you could suddenly have 3-4 times those forces being applied both downward and laterally. And those forces change each time you change direction during an emergency maneuver. WD bars are designed to distribute those forces more evenly, and keep them from exceeding the tolerances that your receiver was engineered to handle. These ratings are based on the SAE J684, which is a federally mandated certification that all hitches must have, and the testing for J684 includes testing for WD devices.

And that is why the rating is higher with WD bars than without - it's not because of what the hitch is capable of handling while travling down the road under normal conditions when everything is just right - it's because of what the hitch is cable of handling during emergency situations when the hardware is pushed to it's limits. And the added benefit of WD bars is that it makes the whole rig more stable for normal driving situations.

Either way, your approach should still be the same - get the trailer & Jeep weighed so you know what you're dealing with, rather than guessing. If you then find yourself over the ratings without WD, you should either invest in a WD hitch, or invest a receiver with higher ratings.

Now I'm sure wilson1010 is going to come back with another reply about some statement I've made here, but if you look closely you'll see that he's got nothing to back it up - no facts, no explanation, nothing more than what he's seen, either out on the highway or at the off-road parks. To quote: he's never seen a hitch failure; he's never had a rig "dive or swerve", doesn't "see any problems", and hasn't seen one in use in the last 5 years. So he believes that if he's never seen any of these issues then they must not exist and you don't need to worry about them.

Here - I'll show you a few pictures of class IV hitch failures, just like mine that failed. These are pictures of two different hitches that failed, from a thread on RV.net where the group was discussing these types of failures. Wait - do they really exist?






Both were GM OEM hitches from the GMT 800 chassis, with the 5,000 lb weight carrying / 12,000 lb WD rating:


It's also interesting to note that these SAE standards were created to level the playing field between different manufacturers, by forcing them to test to the same specifications.
__________________
2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 11-30-2011, 03:04 PM   #19
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 1,724
I am totally confident that when our young OP asks someone he trusts instead of hearing from bickering Internet posters, he will toss the bars in the scrap where 99% of them end up. However, I can't leave the thread without showing my favorite trailer mishap photo which I personally took. The repo guy was not too happy about it and is headed down to tell me he is going to kick my a$$. Ooooh, I was real scared. There were two cops on the scene already.



__________________
03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406
wilson1010 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 11-30-2011, 03:51 PM   #20
MPond
Web Wheeler
 
MPond's Avatar
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 1,409
To muddmonky: Just like I predicted - wilson1010's reply had no facts, no information, nothing of any value - just noise. I've been trying to provide meaningful information for you; hopefully you've found some of it useful.


To wilson1010: This would be a much more interesting discussion if you could backup your statment that 99% of the load bars end up in the scrap pile. But we both know you can't. Just like you haven't been able to back up anything you've stated thus far. Each time I call you out on a particular point you shy away from a direct response because you know you can't back it up. I have both experience and facts on my side. And I've never said that muddmonkey needs WD bars. I've suggested that he should get his rig weighed, and if he's over the 5k lb rating of his receiver then he should either upgrade the receiver or get a WD hitch.

I'm going to continue to provide verifiable info to muddmonky, because I'm interested in helping a fellow Jeeper to stay safe. And as you continue to spout of with misinformation, I'll continue explain why you're wrong.

Plus the things you say are just so entertaining. I like that you can guarantee that he'll "absolutely have no problem"... but you don't really know what his trailer and Jeep weigh, so you really have no way of knowing that.

And how, exactly, do your photos of a crashed gooseneck trailer add to the discussion?
__________________
2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 11-30-2011, 04:35 PM   #21
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 1,724
You are a poseur. Men, with experience like myself know this is not an issue. Post anything you want. You are just fulfilling the stereotype I already identified in you. The OP will learn when he gets some experience that there are people like you in the world who want to cry that the sky is falling every time someone does something that you think is "dangerous." You were the little boy in grade school that ran to tell the teacher when the boys went off the play ground. I am done with you.
__________________
03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406
wilson1010 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 11-30-2011, 04:46 PM   #22
4Runner4Life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 2
To MPond: You are 100% correct on everything you've mentioned throughout your entire post. RIGHT ON.

To Wilson1010: You are missing the point completely. Can you do (or NOT do) all of the things you mention throughout this post and get away with it? Probably, for a very short time brfore there is a failure, but, in the longterm, MPond has hit the nail on the head with each and every comment that he's made and suggested. You, however, are the perfect example of someone who does not look at the whole picture and lives entirely off of luck. Read a book and get informed before leading someone down the wrong path.

To Muddmonky: Consider yourself informed. Listen to MPond and ignore the rest.

Final Note to everyone..(maybe stirring the pot a little): Get yourself a Toyota and drive to and from the trail.
4Runner4Life is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 11-30-2011, 05:05 PM   #23
MPond
Web Wheeler
 
MPond's Avatar
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 1,409
Thanks, 4Runner4Life. It's nice to see someone else who gets it.

I find it funny that, once again, wilson1010 has no facts, no information to share, and can only resort to name calling. Which one of us is the little boy?

It's really too bad that wilson1010 has no idea just how lost he is. He'd rather continue spouting misinformation than add value to the discussion. He can't even figure out a conecpt as simple as WD hitches and why they have value, yet he's somehow mastered human psychology and has me all figured out in only a few internet posts.

Yep - he's got me all figured out. Except I've never suggested any sort of "sky is falling" or "impending doom", anywhere in this thread. Did he just made that up on his own? Maybe it was becuase I pointed out his mistakes again and it hurt his feelings?

This is fun - nothing like a battle of wits with an unarmed man. He says he's done with me, but he'll be back.
__________________
2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 12-01-2011, 03:15 PM   #24
SmokinCummins
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Kingdom City, MO
Posts: 11
I may not be an experianced trailer tower , but I do know not all trailers pull the same, you can't control cross winds, you can't control mother nature, and you can't control the idiots that drive around you. You CAN control how well your trailer tows though. I have taken some pretty big risks when I was younger and did not consider the consequences of "what if".

If your under the 5,000 limit, your fine. If your over a little over the 5,000 your probably going to be fine too, but your increasing the risk of breaking the hitch. I found my hitch was broken on a routine inspection, and I am thankful I found it before it tore loose and killed someone.
SmokinCummins is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 12-03-2011, 01:56 PM   #25
bruteboy
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: british columbia ca
Posts: 482
setting up your tow rig and trailer to the recomendations on the towing equiptment itself will ensure the best possible outcome if anything goes wrong.
knowingly overloading your towing equiptment is a recipe for a lawsuit AND possible criminal charges if something were to go wrong.

NO ONE has the "RIGHT" to risk the lives of the people they share the roads with.
bruteboy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 12-05-2011, 06:34 PM   #26
MPond
Web Wheeler
 
MPond's Avatar
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 1,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruteboy View Post
setting up your tow rig and trailer to the recomendations on the towing equiptment itself will ensure the best possible outcome if anything goes wrong.
knowingly overloading your towing equiptment is a recipe for a lawsuit AND possible criminal charges if something were to go wrong.

NO ONE has the "RIGHT" to risk the lives of the people they share the roads with.
I'm glad you said it, and not me, because I would have been accused of saying "the sky is falling"...

But you're right - I've seen one example where a guy was towing a 5th wheel with a truck that was not rated high enough to tow his trailer, and during an accident investigation by the CHP that fact was brought to light.

He ended up being charged with a crime (don't recall the exact charges) because he was towing in an unsafe configuration - trailer beyond the rating of his truck.
__________________
2006 Black Unlimited 6-speed, Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm Kit
MPond is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.